I’m a dude and an avid hiker in the PNW, I’ve also had encounters with over a dozen bears over the last 5 years.
I’d prefer to encounter a bear when by myself in the woods.
Bears are predictable.
I understand why women pick the bear, but I also understand why men are insulted. It’s not that hard to empathetic is it?
Maybe I’m wrong.
Even as a dude I’d rather pick the bear over any human. Bears are somewhat predictable humans not so much
Also they can hit me up with some coke
The thing is, they’re not. Even those self proclaimed bear experts who say this eventually get mauled to death by them. Bears are wild animals, they’re inherently a dangerous predator. A random guy could be a predator, but even then he’d be less dangerous than a bear. The chance that he IS a predator however, are much lower. People who chose the bear are simply delusional and just help rage baiters with the social divide.
I note you did not dispute my cocane claim.
There hasn’t been a wild bear sighting in my country for hundreds of years, so my fear of people is way higher than my fear of bears
The question of the bait however isn’t worded in a way that takes your local fauna into consideration. It’s just you, in a forest, with either a random man or a wild bear.
Like I said my frlear levels of people I don’t know male or female and everyone in-between is way higher than my fear levels of a bear.
Same, but I still don’t think everyone is a predator based on their gender or sex, despite a lot of anecdotal evidence gathered throughout my life.
How dangerous a bear is is pretty much irrelevant to the whole discourse but I want to talk about bears.
Black bears are absolute cowards and aren’t that dangerous unless you are an idiot
Brown bears will fuck you up if you threaten it or if it has cubs but will in most cases not attack.
Polar bears will kill you because they are bored.
My country has the highest amount of bear per person but we only have brown bears and most people have encountered a bear in the forest, it’s not as scary as the idea of getting roofied and rapes. Also getting attacked by a bear is more unlikely even here than getting roofied and raped. You don’t have to worried about a bear attack while you do need to guard your drink.
1.2 deaths by black bears a year in the US. 400,000 black bears. So 3.0x10^-6 chance of being murdered by a bear adjusted per capita.
26,000 homicides a year (2021, I think it’s slightly lower now but these were the first I saw whatever) for 330M puts you at 7.9x10^-5 chance of being murdered by a human adjusted per capita.
Sorry, bears win. Plus seeing a bear is cool as hell and seeing another human while hiking is annoying at best.
I’m genuinely curious on what the math works out to, but I think you’d need to account for time spent around each, or a “per encounter” statistic or something.
Otherwise there could be a scenario where the bear encounter is 100% deadly for example, but if most bears are never encountered it’d make them seem safer.
Of course, this scenario is specifically an encounter in the woods, so it’d need to be something like: total encounters between women and bears in the woods vs total encounters with women and men in the woods, and then factor in non-deadly encounters, other forms of assault, etc. That probably has next to no useful data though so good luck…
I mean, yeah I A: have no real fucks to give about this argument. B: Bears are cooler than humans men can get over it. C: used the stats I could get from a quick google, not gonna do an entire scientific study just to tell men to get fucked, as funny as it would be.
A lot of homicides happen within an inner circle of family & friends. You’re not that close around bears to the point where they are a threat to you. Also, the US is a terrible example for homicide statistics since it is already such an outlier. But I’m sure you know all those facts already and just try to push an agenda here.
Nah man if I wanted to push an agenda I would’ve adjusted the homicide rates to men instead of just humans. Lol. My only agenda is that bears are objectively cooler than humans and you should probably get over it.
You also need to adjust for amount of time spent in bear territory vs human territory, or bear encounters vs attacks to get a more accurate statistic.
But I don’t have to. It’s about perception. Fear is not based in reality. It doesn’t matter what is actually true but what is perceived to be true. People see people being murdered 30x more often by people than by bears per capita. Ignoring per capita, and it’s 23,000x more than bears. It makes plenty of sense to fear humans more than bears based on that alone. Fear is not going to go “oh but actually statistically speaking in order to be afraid I really should do a scientific study to see who in a “alone in the woods at night” scenario is more likely to kill me before I am afraid!” It’s gonna go with the fact that you see and experience humans killing other humans a LOT more than you experience bears killing humans. Also, I’ve conveniently ignored plenty of stats other than literal homicide you have to worry about from men.
Also, again, none of this matters what does is that bears are objectively cooler than humans, the end.
I mostly agree, but you’re still trying to use inaccurate statistics to justify fear
Hm I wonder if any right wing political parties have ever done this to dehumanize outgroups and promote fascism? 🤔
I wonder if anyone who is Muslim, Black, or Jewish has any thoughts on this history of such dehumanization and inaccurate perceptions 🤔
snakes are wild animals, they’re inherently a dangerous predator
That’s how you sound. Have you been outside?
Consider what you just said about bears.
Now consider that any woman you tell that to is still likely to pick the bear than the strange man who spouts statistics about bear attacks in order to be picked to spend time alone with her in the woods.
This discussion isn’t about statistics. The fact that a woman can tell you directly what she wants, and you can tell her she’s wrong because of xyz, is why it will always and forever be the bear.
Consider what you just said about bears.
Now consider that any Evangelical Christian you tell that to is still likely to pick the bear than the strange Muslim who spouts statistics about bear attacks in order to be picked to spend time alone with her in the airport.
This discussion isn’t about statistics. The fact that an Evangelical Christian can tell you directly what she wants, and you can tell her she’s wrong because of xyz, is why it will always and forever be the bear.
The point is that women can also be bigots - including sexists. It’s benevolent misogyny to presume that they’re too weak and naive to do so
This was never meant to be taken that literally. All it ever was supposed to be was a metaphor for violence perpetuated against women by showcasing how those numbers far exceed the numbers for injuries inflicted by a known danger to humans. Anyone seriously discussing the real-world dangers of bear encounters vs men has already entirely lost the plot from the very start.
The ones who entirely lost the plot are those who are supporting this completely moronic claim, as they’re an accomplice to how our societies become more and more divided, which is exactly the whole point of this rage bait & spread through meme formats like this.
Remember when the IRA did literally the same fucking thing with BLM? The only reason this works is because people like you become emotionally irrational, dying on this very hill of utter stupidity, because it makes you think it gives you some sort of moral high ground.
which is exactly the whole point of this rage bait & spread through meme formats like this
Do you truly believe this meme was intentionally crafted and released as part of some coordinated effort with specific intent of stewing division between the sexes?
No one can prove who created this meme - at least as far as I’m aware.
However, after it was created, it certainly has been boosted and magnified by right wing organizations and intelligence operations to cause the working class to turn on itself and dehumanize one another. Which is always what fascism does to distract from oligarchic wealth and societal decay.
This meme is evil. It isn’t funny or cute. It’s intentionally cancerous and we need to stop spreading such hate.
Because it isn’t white men in wealthy suburban communities who will suffer from this. Rather, it will be the black, brown, and migrant men who are already dehumanized and seen as superpredators.
After all, why was it so wrong for the police to murder George Floyd - he was more dangerous than a bear and (white) women were afraid of him. Given that, it seems that those hero cops acted in accordance with our society’s values, doesn’t it? Or, if we reject that notion, then we must also reject “memes” like this that further the dehumanization that leads to his murder
My friend, I genuinely think you are expressing paranoid and delusion behavior. I’m not trying to be funny, I’m not trying to win any arguments, I genuinely believe that is an unhealthy amount of very specific narrative subtext to read into this. Trying to equate this mild trend making almost milquetoast commentary on real violence trends against women with the state-sanction murder by police of George Floyd is borderline unhinged thinking.
Yeah I probably would too. I mean, “Man is the real monster!” is an old trope for a reason.
What’s troubling is I wouldn’t necessarily feel the same about a random (unarmed) woman in the forest and I suppose that’s the root of the feels here.
But that probably has something to do with my biases/preconceived ideas of gender as well if I’m being honest with myself. Yikes this bear thing is deeper than it seems at first lol.
I would feel just as nervous but I do admit my history plays I big part of that
Right, that’s that gender bias I was referring to. Like not all guys are big or tough and not all women are small or meek.
I have been in an abusive relationship and did not fully grasp the extent of the abuse until I was fully out. It’s insidious stuff and can affect anyone.
If I was in the middle of a large and dense forest and saw a random woman, I’d assume she was either a witch or it was a trap
That’s because even a weak man can still easily overpower a woman. A single woman is not nearly as big a threat to my physical well-being like a man would be to a woman. She would need some kind of weapon or suprise attack or some kind of thoughtful planning to get the better of me while a man can just have a change of mood and boom – woman is in trouble.
Wow, that’s… really sexist against both men and women. I hope you don’t really think that any man can suddenly have a mood change and then overpower any woman.
That’s disrespectful both to the man’s humanity and the woman’s strength
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8477683/
Is science sexist?
8 (of each gender) is not a reasonable sample size.
That’s completely fair. How about 500+?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17186303/
The next one is only ~460.
or she can just shove a knife in your neck while you are asleep.
Why are people downvoting you? This is basic stuff.
She would need some kind of weapon
Fortunately it’s not like we live in a country where there are more guns than people
Because if that were the case then it wouldn’t make sense to only fear certain people
Fortunately it’s not like we live in a country where there are more guns than people
You might, but we don’t.
American is the norm here. Not everyone is American. But most are.
Weird that you take offense to that but don’t take offense to dehumanizing 50% of humanity
Recognizing that people have different experiences than you, something to appear to struggle with, is not dehumanizing 50% of humanity.
Being alone with humans on a forest happens all the time. Hiking is a thing. And while I do grant you that rarely fucked up people do fucked up shit, most of the time absolutely nothing happens. At most there’s some nodding.
Hiking is a thing I do ir all the time away from people I don’t know.
I’m not insulted, I’m angry at my fellow men for being such consistent shitheads that it’s true.
We have enough statistics to know that it isn’t. It’s just that assholes always stand out among others, and the pool of good people is generally lower because when people try to date they will fish in a pond full of people who got rejected for obvious reasons, while all the good fish are already on a platter. Or something like this, I got lost in the analogy.
Directions unclear: I now have a fishhook stuck in my mouth.
It’s not true it’s just a way people argue in bad faith. If you are worse than a bear you are a threat to be managed and it’s a motive to exclude you from society.
motive to exclude you from society.
Except society doesn’t do that.
Source: almost every woman you know has been assaulted. Almost none of their assaulters are in jail.
I’ve spent three days in jail because I broke up with my ex and she went to the police and told them I hit her.
A person who bragged about barging into women’s change rooms and “grabbing them by the pussy” was elected president.
With a shit ton of Christian/conservative women supporting him
That sucks. I hope you never have to deal with that again.
Of the fifty guys i know well, none have had that happen. Of the fifty girls I know well, there’s 49 who have been molested. (Fake numbers because I’m not going to bother counting, but it’s pretty much right)
If I knew you better, I could add you to the pile of stories.
I would agree that most men need to be excluded from society
Who’d you go about that? How’d you choose?
Show them the original post. If they go “Yup” then they get to stay. If they feel the need to write a NOTALLMEN rant they get shown the door.
So you only want men that are OK with being insulted in the face? That’s a pretty small margin you got there.
How is it an insult? Newsflash, you’re not “all men” so you have the power to set yourself apart from the ones who are worse than bears. Men who get worked up about this stuff just need to shift their perspective. I know, I used to be one.
You can leave.
Yes, let the hate flow through you.
If you’re a man and you’re not horrified at the behavior of men then you haven’t talked to enough women.
A statement like, “most women need to be excluded from society,” would be grossly misogynistic.
When you say the same thing about men, it doesn’t make me think you’re an especially enlightened person, I’m sorry.
I think the Patriarchy is the problem and participating in endlessly pitting genders against each other doesn’t help.
If you’re going to blame some vague notion like “the Patriarchy” for the behavior of men it doesn’t make me think you’re an especially enlightened person.
Lack of empathy is why women prefer the bear
This reads two different ways, I agree with both
No it doesn’t
(Mens/Womens) Lack of empathy is why women prefer the bear.
It reads as both due to the lack of specificity
Women lacking empathy is why men rape and murder women?
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I imagine, a lot of the controversy also comes from how people imagine the situation, e.g.:
- Is the person a stranger or an acquaintance?
- Are you “stuck with them”, in the sense that your car broke down, or in the sense that they’re actively hunting you?
Also if they’re white and domestically born, or are they black and foreign born.
Which is what this question is actually about - generating support for xenophobic and anti black policies
What are you talking about? I’ve never seen a version of this prompt that brings race into it at all.
Race is already part of it. When you dehumanize men you make it easier for cops to kill black men, and for Fox News to scare monger about men in migrant caravans, and for Israel to murder male children and claim they are Hamas terrorists.
Men are not weapons or superpredators. They are human beings. And this dehumanizing rhetoric furthers the goals of conservative and fascist actors - and will disproportionately harm men of color and immigrant men
The men who are insulted are making the statement about them. They are too small-minded to consider that the analogy is about how women feel in our world today, not about picking on men. You watch movies and smugly pick out plot holes, while the symbolism and meaning fly miles over your head. We don’t need to know bear attack statistics to wonder why women are choosing the bear.
If you feel attacked by the bear talk, you either lack empathy, or are the strange man in the woods. Either way I don’t need you repping my gender thanks.
Why would you be insulted over this? I really don’t get that.
I reckon you like being generalized then?
“Why would a man who is black/Muslim/immigrant be insulted over women claiming they would rather be with a dangerous wild animal than with him? How could that have any national policy implications?”
But it’s not just men of colour who are insulted. Stop trying to make this about race.
It is not only men of color and immigrant men who are insulted, but they are the ones who will disproportionately suffer real life consequences from dehumanizing rhetoric such as this
I understand why they’re insulted, but an explanation doesn’t really make it any more rational
Men are allowed emotions. Emotions aren’t always rational
I also understand why men are insulted.
It is literally the rage they express when rejected that is WHY we would be more scared to run in to one in the woods than we would a bear.
The fact that they’re getting “insulted” at all, derailing the entire conversation and making it about them and how they are really the victims, is more proof that they don’t give a shit about the actual experiences of violence and abuse that we are subjected to by them, only about their own egos.
Literally all they have to do is fucking listen, they are not the ones being harmed in any way shape or form (the reputation of men is already in the shit and it won’t improve unless they work to improve it amongst themselves, but if anything, their reactions are only making it worse), and them being able to frame and prioritise themselves as the ones being being harmed (by ignoring or minimising the legitimate fears and traumatic experiences of millions of women) is just another of many demonstrations of just how privileged they are.
You’re wrong.
I’d rather be stuck with a bear than with a woman that thinks like you.
I don’t think you’ll have to worry about being stuck with a woman.
I’m sorry you’re being downvoted. Anyone who disagrees with your comment either didn’t read it or refused to understand it. I guess, for the purposes of this thread, Lemmy being predominantly male is outweighing it being predominantly leftist.
You need to take a breath ma’am.
Replying to counter the chuds and say you’re absolutely right, but that I don’t know a way to get this through other men’s thick skulls.
You need to calm down
There’s the stereotypical dismissal
The problem is for those of us who go out of our way to make women feel more comfortable and safe in male dominated environments, hearing women treat you with the same disdain as a sex pest just makes you stop giving a shit.
Which again, I’m sure has happened with other “women when x occurs” memes as well.
Overall very eye opening. I’ll hold my own doors and stop moderating conversations I guess. Just keeping to my own business.
This entire issue is clearly just another culture war wedge being pushed by right wing think tanks except the target audience absolutely ate this one up as well as the victims.
Bro, honestly, you shouldn’t let a few people arguing about a meme online stop you from respecting the women who are actually in your life.
Door holding for the people behind you is respectful no matter if they’re a man or a woman. I think most people hold the door if they’re paying attention.
But stopping a conversation from going off the rails in a sexist/derogatory manner? Bruh you could be the difference in one woman’s life from her feeling the full relatability to this meme.
Bro are you doing these things to actually make women comfortable and safe around you, or are you doing them so that women treat you nicely? The former is feminist, and the latter is disguised chivalry where women still owe you things for treating them like people. Withholding your support of women unless they tell you what a
big strong mangood ally you are is not a way to a more equal future, and you can apply this to virtually any minority rights movement.And if you think women being wary of unknown men is a personal critique, I don’t know what to tell you except that it doesn’t reflect well on you. But it seems like there’s a lot of folks here who missed the point hard and are stepping in it, so you’re in company at least.
“some women made me feel bad, guess it’s time to be a misogynist now :c”
You should “go out of your way” to be a good person, not because of what random people will say about the 50% of the population you happen to fall into.
The problem is that the argument isn’t about the bear, it’s about emotions.
The dudes trying to defend themselves feel personally attacked, because telling someone that the average woman thinks they’re more dangerous than a bear feels both unfair and discriminatory.
The people on bear side, encounter enough shitty men that they feel like the average man is more likely to harm them compared to bear.
The scenario is so unlikely to occur that any factual arguments are impossible to prove either way. And the way the question is structured (either accidentally or otherwise) is inflammatory and divisive.
I’m sure everyone can agree that women have to deal with shitty predatory men way too often. And that’s the thought that the question is meant to provoke.
People defending most men aren’t automatically predators and stalkers, please have a little empathy for them, and hopefully they’ll have a little empathy for you
The dudes trying to defend themselves feel personally attacked, because telling someone that the average woman thinks they’re more dangerous than a bear feels both unfair and discriminatory.
I’m not a man and not trying to defend myself. I just think the bear aren’t being reasonable (when taken literally and not as a thought provoking comment)
It’s like and introvert saying they would rather fight a gorilla than make a phone call for a doctors appointment. Yeah I understand the point you’re making but beyond the hyperbole, no reasonable person is actually choosing the gorilla over a phone call.
Totally understand your point, I’m not saying that the anti bear side is all dudes defending themselves. Although I should have written that better because it’s not obvious.
I’m mostly responding to the post title of “Either ya understand why most women pick the 🐻 or you are the 🐻” which has the effect of making men feel bad for trying to defend themselves.
I wish more people were as level headed as you in these discussions. Part of my point is that the bear side aren’t being reasonable
Try assuming the person saying it is reasonable.
That’s the problem. Women are reasonable. They have good reasons for saying what they are saying.
It’ comes from the same gender essentialism that has served as a feminist to terf pipeline for awhile now.
that’s cool and all, but most incidents happen with men the victims knew peesonally, strangers are relatively harmless
You’re right, factually you’re right. That’s not what this is really about though.
Enough strangers are weird and creepy to women they’ve just met in a way that feels threatening and scary. Think about catcalling, groping at bars, first dates gone wrong. None of these are going to be recorded as incidents, even if they should be.
The bear doesn’t matter, the statement is about feelings, not facts or logic. It’s about how women feel unsafe around unknown men
what good is empathy when there is moral outrage and shaming to indulge in?
we all know men aren’t people. only women are people.
I get where you’re coming from, that’s why I’m arguing in favour of more empathy for the men, as well as more empathy for the women.
I just want people to calm down and talk to each other
I know a few bears that you definitely want with you if you are lost in the woods.
Of course I know the bear, he’s me
Guys… This is not a complicated discussion. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been the man. And now I’ve been the woman. I’m telling you without question I’m picking the fucking bear. Men are scary motherfuckers. A sizeable number of you are cruel, calculating, and downright uncaring. If you’re debating women about why they’d pick a potentially dangerous animal to be alone with in the woods instead of you, you have entirely missed the point.
Go talk to every woman you know in your social circles and in your family, and ask them if they have been assaulted or sexually assaulted by men. The number of them that says yes to that question is going to be depressing. Some of them might even confide in you that they’ve been raped. My own sister didn’t tell me until I asked her why she was so upset with my brother one time. She had recently been raped by a boyfriend and when men got angry around her she’d flip out. Those acts, when inflicted on you, poison your default view of your fellow man. If you can’t imagine a man being more dangerous than a bear, then you’ve never had to.
A bear can’t break my trust. A bear can’t gaslight me into thinking all the shitty things he does are because he loves me. And if I told someone I got attacked by a bear, at least they’d believe me. They wouldn’t need to bring out a bear assault kit to prove it. The bear is predictable. Men are not.
I’m also a tran woman. You, me and everyone else spends every single day with random men you don’t know. How often would you chose to walk through a bear enclosure at a zoo if you could?
Yes men sexually assault women. No that does not mean a wild fuckjng animal that can kill you by accident with a singe swipe is the better fucking option.
If given the choice between spending the night alone in the woods with one of two random trans women I saw online in a discussion about bears and men, I’m picking you over that other one.
i feel like the main problems guys have with this that they imagine themselves vs the bear and it hurts their ego and they try to justify themselves because no one wants to be the bad guy
I agree with you there, but I think it’s valid for guys to have emotions.
Saying “I think the average man is more likely to harm me than a bear” is very easy to misinterpret, and then further demonising those people by saying they’re the problem isn’t helping. It just leaves them more confused and isolated.
I’ve had plenty of conversations with men defending themselves, it’s easy enough to help them understand that enough men give women bad experiences that they prefer the bear. It just needs to be done calmly to avoid further getting their guard up
I think this is an important point on the interpretation of the question. For women it seems like “Be in the wild with the worst possible man or the worst possible bear” and then the bear seems to “win”. If you ask a guy he naturally kind of identifies with the man and the question becomes more a “be in the wild with you or with a bear”. And then choosing the bear seems like a judgement about them.
Guys, this is not a complicated discussion: I have spent a decade in the boreal forest, I and I can fucking tell you I’m picking the bear, too, every time. At least I can mace the fucking bear if it annoys me; macing crew assistants requires too much paper work…
Some context: my background is in pre-disturbance biophysical surveys. I (used to) go out into boreal, where they want to build something, and tell them what’s there from an environmental standpoint. Teams are small (maybe 12 people) and split into two-person crews. We were often paired guy-girl teams, since my specific discipline is very physical (not like veg, where you’re just looking at plants). So, I’ve literally been the dude in the woods with some girl, for a 14 day shift, and it’s just her and I. The next crew is maybe 2-3 kms away.
Anyway, the point I’m trying (poorly) to make, is that women really have to deal with a lot of shit. Part of working remotely, is you’re often staying in camps, and camp life for women sucks. Bunch of dude eye raping you as you’re just trying to eat your fucking cheerios, and that’s just the start of it. The other half is they’re treated (when dealing with other workers) as if they don’t know anything. It’s flat bullshit.
But that’s the thing: it is complicated. Men are people, they’re individuals. Constantly treating them like they’re inherently predators just pushes more of them towards becoming predators.
I can sympathize with other women whose experiences have led them to think this way, but it’s still the same gender essentialism that’s served as a feminist to terf pipeline for years.
sorry, but the notion that fear of men pushes them to be predators is absolute bullshit. that’s an argument that’s an insult to anyone who has been victimized by a man and an insult to men as well.
Nothing is predictable when you are assuming the worst case for everything. I don’t think you could reason with cocaine bear. Men can be terrible but it’s not that likely to encounter rapists and killers. It’s easy to cherrypick scary murder stories to be afraid of. Most of the time a lost women has been found and saved in the woods it was by the predominantly male search and rescue. Also why should I leave my kids at a women day care with how often they drown them. Probably be safer leaving my kids with sharks
This has nothing to do with the vast majority of what you said, but I misread “bear assault kit” as "bear assault KILT and now I want a bear assault kilt. To wear in case of bear assault.
Or is it an assault kilt made of bear skin?
Oh.ffs. here we go
Men on Reddit are still salty days later about women choosing to be with a bear rather than a random man in the forest. Even to the point of mansplaining their position and invalidating women’s lived experiences.
Unfortunately, it’s not hard to find them on lemmy too.
Edit: lmao looks like the incels and Tater tots have arrived. Hey fellas!
It’s just weird that not even 5 years after BLM that we’re back to saying that we’d prefer to be with literal animals than be around black men
The cops that murdered George Floyd probably felt the same way
Holy shit look at those mental gymnastics
All men have a race and a national origin. When we dehumanize men and say that a vicious animal is safer than them, we are normalizing dehumanization and violence. Which, in the United States, will eventually lead to violence against men who are disproportionately black, brown, Muslim, and foreign born.
Which is partially why black men are murdered at such high rates - they aren’t seen as “people”, they’re seen as superpredators. And is also why it is easy to turn away refugees at the border - because they’re all soldiers in a migrant caravan coming to kill us. And is why Israel can claim they killed a dangerous Hamas terrorist when, in reality, all they did was murder a 12 year old boy.
When men are seen as inherently harmful and women are seen as inherently harmless, dehumanization and prejudicial violence occurs. This meme was astroturfed by right wing organizations to help accomplish that goal. We should reject it.
Femcels complaining about incels. You people are the spiderman meme.
Totally, the whole thing is inflammatory hyperbole.
I get the point that while not all men™, enough men exhibit predatory behaviour to the extent that a decently large percentage of women fear the average man more than the average bear.
But this is just deliberately sowing division, and more shows how little both sides know about both bear behaviour and crime statistics
enough men exhibit predatory behaviour to the extent that a decently large percentage of women fear the average man more than the average bear.
Women should fear the average man far more than the average bear because they will almost certainly never encounter the average bear, but will encounter thousands of men.
That said, the entire argument belies a deep misunderstanding of statistics. Many women, perhaps most women, have experienced trauma at the hands of men. Many men, perhaps most men, have not been perpetrators of that trauma. There is not a 1-1 relationship between victimized women and guilty men - there is a minority of men who negatively affect many women.
The entire thing has become flamebait and it is impossible to have an actual discussion about it. The point is to start a conversation about how women feel unsafe in society - not to talk about bear attacks and incels.
But I wanted to have sex with her!
I don’t think the bear can consent friend…but it’s good to have goals in life
Um, trigger warning I guess.
As an autist who has encountered bullying throughout my life, men have generally been kinder to me than women. Women seems to “sniff” out my otherness and sideline me for it. Men seem to take it easy on me.
So I think the argument is unfairly gendered. I’ve encountered enough women who’re just as malicious and damaging as the men bear-choosing people are avoiding. A mean woman would leave me to die in the forest while she fends for herself. In middle and high school, I was only ever physically threatened by a girl bullies. So idk, I am biased by my trauma I guess.
You do realize that leaving her alone to die is what most women are only hoping the man might choose?
Hey that’s an interesting counterpoint. I suspect your experience is possibly like the shitty analogy of ‘the exception that proves the rule’? (Im trying to avoid completely missing your point, however)
I am saying for me either man or bear would work, but if woman was a choice I’d probably avoid her unless I knew her really well.
But that fits exactly with the bear or man question.
If posed with the question would you rather be in the forest with a random bear or a random woman, due to your experience, you’d choose the bear. Just like, I would assume, for the vast majority of women they’d choose the bear as well based on their experiences in life.
This is a very narrow perspective. You think you’ve met women who will rape you and then murder you to avoid getting caught? This is what “the bear choosing people are avoiding.” That’s what the women are afraid of. I am sorry you’ve been bullied, and no one should be physically threatened just for being different.
This isn’t about bullying or helping. It’s about rape and kidnapping. This is an entirely different fear and problem.
I love this trend, because anybody who provides a serious answer whatsoever has already fallen for its trap. It’s such an absolutely absurd scenario that’s just specific enough to be divisive, and just vague enough that you can fill in the gaps with any preconceived notions of your own. It’s impossible to provide any answer in which you can’t be made to look like a clown, because every answer comes with baked-in counter arguments to it. Any answer you provide makes you look either heartless or clueless.
It almost makes me appreciate rage-bait as an art form.
Bill Burr’s commentary on the issue
Or, you know, just listen to women… Revolutionary, I know, and seemingly impossible to some, but that’s literally all you need to do to not be “trapped” (magically managing to claim victimhood where there is none, as per usual), instead of outing yourself, just like OP suggests… ¯\(ツ)/¯
I thought the victim was the bear, he doesn’t want some random ass woman bothering him shitting in the forest.
If you treat every person you meet as a predator, eventually you will only be left with those who are. The rest will just leave you to your own business and only the predators will pursue, yes?
No
Just curious, no to what? I am not challenging the idea of the thought experiment or the visceral fear that some people have toward a man vs a wild animal, just seems odd to me downplay one side and increase the risk of the other. In this thought experiment where we are using a meek bear, does it change if we use a polar bear. Does it change using a mountain lion or lion? A leapord? A rabid dog?
Would you say the same if the argument was about the inherent danger of black men? If a bunch of white women were online saying black men are dangerous we wouldn’t say that black men calling it out were “magically claiming false victimhood” we’d say those women’s fears, even if they are truly felt, are a product of prejudice and unfair and they’re spreading of these ideas is damaging.
…but no one is making this racist except those trying to cause arguments, and those who don’t understand what women are saying.
Yes, if someone said something racist and meant it, they’d be a racist. Women are not doing that.
So, being sexist is ok, but being racist isn’t. Got it.
… But no one is being thrown into the woods with a random stranger or a bear. Like the original question this is a hypothetical meant to prove a point. The original point seems to be “the average man is dangerous” , this is meant to show that point can be prejudiced/sexist. It’s meant to show that the argument that some people are saying they’re afraid of a group therefore we must validate that fear can lead to some bad places and shouldn’t be used. This argument is at the core of what the comment I replied to.
No, women are just being sexist
You seriously think women are equally afraid of white men as they are of black men, or Muslim men, or immigrant men?
The answer is no. Which is why right wing groups astroturfed this meme in the first place - to otherize minority groups and increase xenophobic policies. All under the name of protecting women/feminism
Which is what always happens - we need to protect our virginal women from the foreign hordes. Fascism has a pretty simple playbook
I’m pretty sure every woman I regularly interact with has realized that white men are scarier than men of color, by and large. Have you been paying attention for the last 8 years?
Have you been paying attention for the last 8 years?
To all the men of color who keep getting disproportionately murdered and seen as superpredators? To all the white women who cross the street everytime they see a black man? To all the white mothers who refuse to send their kids to the public school because it’s too “”“dangerous”“”?
Yes I have noticed that.
It’s impossible to provide any answer in which you can’t be made to look like a clown
“Would you rather encounter a bear or a (black or muslim) man” is a good way to produce different results
This one flew over my head. Could someone please cue me in on what this meme is referencing?
EDIT: I’m I dumbass who didn’t notice the link. Thank you for the explanation, though.
Oh no you’re not. I edited it in immediately after I saw your comment but then got busy irl and didn’t have time to reply until now.
Thanks for doing so anyhow. I’d only been seeing memes, and while I got the gist, I appreciate the full explanation.
There was a woman (IIRC a feminist) who posted a rage bait question of “women if you had to choose to be in the woods with a bear or a strange man, what would you choose?” (Paraphrasing)
Then got a bunch of hate mail from men and used that to exclaim that the hate mail was the exact reason women would choose a bear over a man in the woods.
a feminist who posted a rage bait question
You should read the link up top, because it sounds like you’re making a lot of assumptions. It wasn’t a rage bait at all, but a response to video of taunting a bear in the woods about how taunting a man would be more dangerous.
And then it turned in to a bunch of different people discussing variations of the scenario.
Ah, well I apologize for not recognizing the original source. I was going off memory from where I saw the tweet of the question. I hadn’t realized it was from a response video. Though I still feel it was made to get a rise from people
This whole conversation is the equivalent to stranger danger of the 80s, it is shocking how far the publics social awareness is. Just like stranger danger it enphasizes fear over rational truth, and encourages isolation over community. The truth of the matter is that some random man isn’t a bigger threat to you than a random bear, when looking at statistics and physical threat to women it’s domestic violence.
This bear shit is some whack ass 4th wave feminism that completely lacks any kind of internal self criticism. The public conversation surrounding it provides no purpose than to feed into incel radicalization of young men feeling the strains of alienation under capitalism.
Did… did you miss the #metoo movement?
Where like 60% of women get harassed regularly, and 50 % felt unsafe walking home in public, due to men. Or 79% of women felt unsafe while exercising, due to men. And 88% of travelling women felt unsafe, due to men.
Bears are hungry, scared, have cubs to protect, or mostly want to be left alone. They won’t stalk you, leer at you, catcall or grope you.
You sir, are the one lacking self reflection.
No, no, no. Don’t you realize? Men are the real victims here! Eyeroll to end all eyerolls
Where like 60% of women get harassed regularly
That’s not what the linked study says: In June 2021, the Opinions and Lifestyle Survey (OPN) showed that 28% of women and 16% of men had experienced at least one form of harassment in the previous 12 months. Of adults aged 16 to 34 years, 58% of women had experienced harassment, compared with 24% of men (Figure 4).
And don’t get me wrong, I am not here to justify harassment of anyone, but you’re grossly misrepresenting the study right now. Perceptions are absolutely influenced by experience of harassment but the actual threat to a woman is not random men on the street, it’s a man that has power over her or within her circle of trust. That could be a boss, a husband or relative.
However that reality is not what is shaping public perception, I would ask you why do you think that is? It’s a very important part of this bear conversation that is completely lost on everyone.
From the study summary:
Three out of five women aged 16 to 34 years experienced at least one form of harassment in the previous 12 months
Three out of five is 60%.
I don’t want to get in the weeds here, at least once in the last 12 months is not regularly, that’s my point on your misrepentation. Does it happen too much, absolutely, does the study present enough data to say it’s happening regularly, no.
Again when talking about actual threats to women it is not strangers but men already in their circle, yet that is not what the bear discussion revolves around.
Please answer: Why do you think the actual threat doesn’t shape public consciousness the same way perceived threats do?
“Feminist”
Unsure what that quote is supposed to imply. Either she does associate herself with the movement or she does not. I don’t know the person or follow any of their social stuff. So if she does not, in fact, self associate with that group than I misremembered and I’m wrong. If she does than she is.
Feminism is very clearly defined in what it is and does. Posting divisive man hating rage bait is not part of it. Just calling yourself something does not make yourself something.
Sure does, but as far as I’m aware, subscription to the ideology is the only bar to entry. Just because someone uses distasteful methods does not mean they do not subscribe to the ideology. So in this case, I would argue that stating it does make it.
What are you talking about? Feminism is about equality. How does this method achieve equality?
That’s a good question for the person who we’re talking about. I can’t speak on behalf of their reasoning but they seem to feel justified in it, somehow.
I don’t know why the question was asked in the city. Go out to the forest women and ask them.
In general, people and bears don’t want to hassle each other, doubly so for those in the woods. If you encounter either, you’re probably going to be fine. However, bears won’t stalk you, pretend to be friendly to gain your trust with the intention of harming you. Men won’t go into a blind rage because hibernation season is around the corner and you’re standing between them and a delicious tuna sandwich. Honestly if I’m alone in the woods I’d rather encounter an animal than a person because I was in the woods to be alone.
If you are in the woods and encounter a man or mountain lion
- make yourself look as big as possible
- maintain eye contact
- demonstrate you are a threat
- don’t trust his lies
If you encounter a bear
- avoid getting between a mother and her cubs
- take extra precautions to bearproof your food at your campsite
- back away slowly while facing the bear (without maintaining eye contact)
- under no circumstances should you fight a bear
I know this is mostly a joke post but if a black bear (or any color man) attacks you the best move IS generally to fight back.
This is correct. If a black bear gets aggressive without cubs involved, the animal is likely either ill or has lost its fear of humans (which is bad, mmkay) and has likely decided that they are on the menu.
Yeah and black bears are pussies despite being bears, if you’re lucky you can disable them at the expense of your arm’s noncrushedness
tank?
I don’t get it, what’s to be mad about? Please pick the bear and leave me alone at my campsite.
More empathy is needed on both sides. If you don’t understand how being told that women think that you’re more dangerous than a bear could be inflammatory, then you’re just as lacking in empathy as the people who don’t understand that enough men are so fucking shitty that many women would choose bear
You know what’s more insulting to me as a man? The fact that one out of every six women will be sexually assaulted.
Being told that women are afraid of men isn’t insulting; it’s reasonable.
It is insulting though. It being true doesn’t make it less so. You can communicate the truth in such a way that it doesn’t alienate potential allies, and create potential enemies
You are an individual! You do not need to make this general question about yourself! Gahh, it’s like trying to talk to myself 10 years ago.
I hope it makes some men (looking at the commenters on r/tinder who speak in terms of a marketplace) understand that they aren’t necessarily competing with other men, they’re also competing with the null hypothesis: Would she rather be alone (or with a bear).
It also means that the remaining women out there are likely predators themselves. They can’t win.
I’m not following your logic here
You have good women, likely already taken and not on Tinder. You have men hating women who think they’re all disgusting rapists. You have abusive women who look for weaker men to manipulate. Who are you most likely to meet if one group is not there, another is not actually really interested in you anyway and the third will probably cheat on you, gaslight you and maybe even get physical.
fucking mood, reading this dumpster fire of a fucking thread. I’m going back to work.
Same with me in every 2a discussion …… I’m more afraid of people who feel they need to bring guns along in the wilderness, than I am of anything I might encounter.
(I know there are still some parts of the world where you really may need a weapon for protection but most of us never go there)
Ok but what if you run into 2a people out in the woods. It’s like a catch 22, bro.
I love the look on her face. It’s like a combination of amazement, and thinking “I’ve gotta hold back the laughter. He’ll think I’m laughing with him, not at him, and then I’ll be trapped here all night.”
It’s from a skit done by members of The Dark Order which is a wrestling faction in AEW!
That was great. I thought it was an actual party photo, but she was just trying not to ruin the skit lol. Thanks!
