Vans and minivans do everything trucks and SUVs do, and they do it better. Every time. No exception. SUVs and crossovers are just worse minivans for people who think they’re too cool to drive a minivan.
And those outside of North America largely need not apply. I wish we could just have a robust public transit system here, but apparently, public transit is antithetical to muh freedum or something. Or so they tell me.
And that’s not even getting into the point the post makes, which is that these monstrosities are getting bigger and more dangerous to pedestrians, yet our governments do nothing to stop it.
Honestly I don’t mind trucks or SUVs specifically but vehicles are getting way too big on average, I mean the F150 is North America’s best selling vehicle (*edit: I have since learned as of 2024 that spot actually belongs to the RAV4) since forever. It’s a problem of misaligned incentives.
There’s an exception carved out for large vehicles in the EPA guidelines that hold them to less stringent emissions standards which incentivizes building larger vehicles 1
Large cars are also incentivized by our crash safety rating system which only takes into account the mortality rate of those inside the car as apposed to average related fatalities. This means it will prioritize safety of those in the vehicle, which has led to our average fatalities increasing. 2
As an unintended side effect this also damages roads much faster because vehicle weight per axle determines the magnitude of the damage a vehicle does to the road. 3 anecdotally this makes me concerned for the additional weight that electric cars add.
Also as vehicles increase in weight the amount of microplastics put into the air as a by product of tire wear increase. 4
As cars increase in size (and therefore weight) the downsides are exponential.
The distances are a problem in the US for good public transport.
So are: Lawyers, NIMBYs, classism, racism, anti-tax, automotive lobbyists, peer pressure, and even environmentalists.
NIMBY is an unfortunate term that lazily discounts completely valid arguments against bad things that happen to be in someone’s “backyard” - as if people being personally affected changes the facts of the situation.
“Bad things”
Like public transportation? Which is what we’re discussing. Not sewage treatment plants.
I’m not arguing whatever issue is being argued here, in fact I didn’t even know what it was. I’m talking about the term NIMBY and saying exactly (and only) what I said.
Oh, so you’re ignoring the entire conversation to make an ignorant quip obviously based on the fact you don’t know what NIMBYs are… and then you carry on to admit you don’t know what a NIMBY is…
Damn, ignorance must be your friend if you chum up with it so readily.
Let me clue you in: NIMBYs complain about ANY change that they do not personally want. As the person you conveniently ignored already pointed out, NIMBYs say no to things that are good for society, NOT for valid reasons, but because they’re selfish pricks who don’t care about making society better.
Lol land of the free
Vans and minivans do everything trucks and SUVs do, and they do it better.
Except tow things.
Make it way harder to haul stuff. Gotta hand load instead of letting the loader load your load.
Lol that’s silly. Even motorcycles can tow things. Sedans can tow things. RV’s, vans, station wagons.
But they can’t do it better than trucks can. Can a motorcycle tow a 27’ travel trailer filled with all the things you need to live for an extended amount of time?
No, but and old small Volvo hatchback can. What kind of roads do you have over there?
Proof to support your claim? This seems like an outright lie to me.
Why do they need to do it “better”, and how are we defining “better”?
Those vehicles are all much better at not running over pedestrians. They get better fuel mileage when not towing things, which is the vast majority of the time. They fit into parking spots better. We could go on and on arguing the pros and cons of these classes of vehicles and how good or bad they are at different things. And then we can dive further into specific models and how electric trucks might get better mileage or how kei trucks are much closer to vans than modern American trucks. Or even how small pickup trucks used to exist in America and we’re mostly fine. Or we could look at things like how all the biggest logistics companies in the world have put billions of dollars into developing their own vehicles and none of them have landed on pickup trucks.
Honestly I don’t really care how good a vehicle is at towing or hauling stuff. If it cannot do so without losing a ridiculous risk to pedestrians and property it shouldn’t exist. There are tons of products that have been banned despite being very effective at what they were designed to do because they also happened to be good at killing people.
My friend was killed by a bus while riding her bike. Should we ban public transit?
I think you need to go back to middle school science to understand the importance of sample size. With a sample size of 1, it is not possible to isolate variables and determine a correlation, let alone causality. Was the driver under the influence of any substances? Was this on a section of road or intersection that was poorly designed or maintained? Were any parts of the bus or bike poorly designed or malfunctioning? And while I hate to blame victims, if the goal is to understand what happened and prevent future incidents, we need to understand the victim’s behavior and how that may have contributed as well. What a case study, particularly an individual death or injury CAN tell us is that we need to further study the situation to learn how it happened and how to prevent or mitigate it in the future.
And of course, I mentioned several other personal vehicles as options. Over 40k people die each year in the US alone from all motor vehicle collisions- we should also be looking at legislation to sedans, vans, busses, motorcycles, roads, and everything else safer. However, compared to busses personal vehicles are WAY more dangerous. To the point where it’s kind of silly to even display this data in a bar chart.
Here is a study looking at a larger sample size. Trucks and SUV’s are more likely to strike pedestrians and more likely to be fatal.
Or are you suggesting we should do nothing? Just accept the fact that manufacturers are allowed to design and market death traps, and individuals are allowed to rampage through the streets as they please? Maybe we should remove seatbelt requirements too while we are at it?
Don’t get me wrong. The bedonked trucks rolling coal and driving like assholes should be penalized and car manufacturers should be limited in how big they keep making these things. But you’re not going to get rid of trucks. Especially not in America. Good luck with the crusade though.
And good luck carrying something long or tall.
Lots of people need a truck often enough that it makes more sense to own one than to buy 2 cars, even if most of the time it’s just a passenger car.
My parents have a plug-in hybrid and an F150 as their 2 cars because most of the time, the hybrid is great but frequently they need to move plywood or rent a trencher.
I drive an NV200 (mini cargo van) because I frequently need to haul scuba gear and tools, but rarely anything that won’t fit in the cargo area of the van.
It’s almost like different vehicles we’ve different roles.
You can rent a fucking truck if you need something long or tall. The only people who need trucks are people who are doing that kinda stuff on the regular. I just got to the hospital and this huge truck pulls up to the handicapped area and two elderly people got out, very carefully since they needed to climb down. They do NOT need a truck.
edit: Sorry, I thought this was /c/fuckcars
So getting something that takes 20 minutes is now an all day ordeal? Do you think people just have limitless free time?
The rest of the time you’re using your truck for menial tasks you’re spending much more money on vehicle maintenance, not to mention the overall cost of a truck over a commuter vehicle. And people aren’t make of limitless money, they’re just going into debt to get these bigger vehicles.
Spend a little time to save a lot of money.
My time is worth $50 an hour, yeah no hahaha. People have different circumstances. I would make more by having g the truck sit most of the time then to waste a whole day doing a 30 minute task.
Think higher of your own worth and time.
My in-laws have a van that can out-pull my pickup. Partly due to my trucks age and how heavily it has been used over the years, but their van isn’t exactly a pushover.
And they have their own pickup that is only a few years old and it can’t tow their camper very well. They use their van whenever they can.
I’ll show you how many people I see driving absolutely massive trucks (with 6" spacers on the wheels that are abysmal for the drivetrain and look absolutely hideous) that are towing more than 1 single fat ass american:
Interesting note: the reason so many vehicles are black, white or silver/gray is that dealers have found those are the colors customers looking for other colors will settle for if they get a good deal, so dealers stock a lot more of those 3 colors.
What about moving a mattress? Can’t fit that in a minivan, and that comes up all the damn time.
There are valid complaints in here, but most of it is nonsense. Trucks and SUVs are the only choice? What do you even mean by that? It’s way easier to get a regular car.
I live in Texas. I only know one person with a truck, and it’s used constantly. There’s something in the flatbed that wouldn’t fit in a van at least once or twice a month, I’d say.
I’ve moved many a mattress in my parent’s minivan. With the seats folded down or removed and a bit of an angle and/or squishing in a bit you can usually fit a queen, maybe even a king depending on the mattress and van. Box springs are harder, but often still doable, and in a pinch can be easily strapped to a roof rack.
They also have a '93 ranger with the 7ft bed, still chose to use the van for mattresses as often as not, to need to strap anything down or cover them if there’s rain in the forecast.
I did a road trip with my wife a few years back and borrowed their Sedona, took out the back seats, threw a “queen” sized air mattress (I’m pretty sure it was a little undersized from a real mattress, but still pretty close) and the mattress was a little squished on the sides but otherwise fit pretty comfortably in the back, we slept in the van for about a week moving between different campsites.
Know what mattresses don’t fit comfortably in? The 5.5ft beds a lot of pickup trucks have these days.
Fair enough. But short beds notwithstanding, removing seats or using a roof rack hardly qualify as “doing everything trucks do and doing it better”.
I’d still rather use the truck. The original post is silly.
I mean, it probably takes about as long for me to remove the seats from the van as it does for me to find a broom and sweep out the truck bed to make sure my mattress doesn’t get dirty because I’ve been using my truck as a truck, so six of one, half dozen of the other.
And truck bed or roof rack I’m anal about securing my loads, so I’m gonna spend a few minutes fucking with ratchet straps either way, box springs are light so unless you’re really short it’s pretty trivial to get them on a roof rack.
Plus you get the benefit of being able to carry more passengers when you need to. Haven’t found a pickup yet that will seat 7 or 8 people.
You can fit at least a twin, probably a full size inside most minivans (I did have to take one out of a grand caravan recently), and a queen or king would go on the roof fine if you spec one with crossbars. Most minivans also have reasonable towing capacity, so renting a U-Haul utility or cargo trailer is less than the difference in one monthly payment between a van and a bigger truck or SUV. I’ve put thousands of miles on my 2nd gen highlander hybrid just towing either my utility trailer (5x8) or a U-Haul cargo (4x6, 5x8, and 6x12), moved twice, helped friends and family move, done dump runs etc… I’ve only rented a moving truck once, for my first move, and that was only due to limited time for a full apartment move.
The Highlander is an SUV and is thus unsafe to pedestrians and worse than a minivan according to this post.
I mean, it’s a hybrid vehicle that seats 7 people that is smaller in length and width than a new sienna, the same weight and the same towing capacity. It might be an inch or 2 taller than the sienna overall because I needed to add a 1.5" lift when I replaced my suspension at 195000 miles to give me the ground clearance to clear the rocks where I go camping when it’s fully loaded, but I still manage to get the 28mpg it was rated for 13 years ago. My previous 2006 highlander hybrid had almost 170K on it when I upgraded to the 2012. Hate on a Tahoe or Expedition or Wagoneer all you want because they are fucking absurd vehicles, but I bought literally the only used AWD, hybrid people mover/working vehicle I could buy, and when my 2006 hihy came out it was the only option at all 15 years before the Sienna went hybrid.
I would love to buy a kei car but the USA won’t import them. I want a Nissan Sakura - an EV that costs $15,000 new. Nope. The USA has all these rules in place to prevent competition. They say it’s about fuel efficiency or safety, but many foreign cars are more fuel efficient than USA cars, and this is an EV - so it’s vastly more fuel efficient! As for safety, we allow motorcycles, golf carts, and farm tractors on our roads but not kei cars?
It’s not about fuel efficiency or safety. It’s about protectionism. USA auto manufacturers have rigged our market to ensure we have to pay $30,000 or more to buy a new car. They don’t want $10,000 kei cars being sold here because they know they can’t compete.
They’re legal in colorado but with a lot of protectionist add-ons, like the newest model you can import is 25 years old, and you can’t get on the highway with one.
They’re legal in Texas now. I think in November they’ll be 100% legal and soon be able to buy them from a dealer. Since last year you could import them.
We’re pop up headlights a danger? I always wondered why they went away as a style choice
Dangerous, overcomplicated, prone to failure and expensive. The auto industry didn’t fight to save them because customers didn’t really seem to care that much about them.
That makes a ton of sense, huh, today I learned
Are crossovers that bad? They seem mostly to be sedans with better storage and a little worse gas mileage. The latter of which minivans definitely dont win on.
That just sounds like a worse station wagon. Which, being the owner of a Subaru Outback station wagon, I can confirm.
Wouldn’t a station wagon have even worse gas mileage?
Worse station wagon is exactly what a crossover is
Vans and minivans do everything trucks and SUVs do,
And move big things. I have a minivan. But I destroyed my suspension using it to rent yard equipment. I couldn’t rent many because they wouldn’t fit. There’s also the whole moving a muddy bush hog into my carpeted minivan that is a huge hassle.
I can’t find any vehicle big enough to move my muddy bush hog 😏
Can’t get a load of rock dumped in a minivan, can’t use a forklift to put a pallet in it, no using lifts either. Plenty of stuff vans can’t do.
Probably not in a minivan, but I’ve personally loaded pallets into cargo vans with a forklift
I think you’re right, and the original post is wrong to say that vans do it better every time, no exception.
However, I think that a van would be a more practical and better vehicle for a vast majority of people who are driving trucks. It’s just that people don’t care if things are practical, they want things that they think are cool.
Not even close to true. We have a small car (integra) and a giant truck (F250). We use the F250 to tow boats and a camper. Most people look at the tow limit and don’t realize the limiting factor is the payload. We had to trade in our F150 for the F250 because the F150 only had 1500 lbs payload. The camper (6000lbs dry, 7500 lbs max) had a dry tongue weight of 850 lbs and a loaded payload closer to 1000 lbs. Leaving about 500 lbs for people, dogs, and cargo. Doesn’t work. F250 has 3300 lbs payload. Find me a van with 3300 payload and no, don’t look in the manual. Those are all the theoretical max payload. Look at the door sticker. F150 manual says something like 2200 lbs, but door sticker says 1500 lbs. And yes, the F250 is no fun to drive in a city or take shopping. Thats what the Integra is for.
F150 manual says something like 2200 lbs,
That’s for the f-150 each trim and modification lowers it. Want the v8 instead of v6, less payload. Entertainment and speakers, less payload. Captains chairs, less payload.
The manual tells you all of this as well.
Sure, but that doesn’t give you an actual payload number. The only ways I’ve seen to get an actual number is the door sticker or the manufacturer tow calculator. You can get the VIN off of a dealer page and enter it like https://www.ford.com/support/towing-calculator with VIN 1FTFW5LD5SFB04598 and check out the 1340 lbs payload on that F150.
Well that’s because a single item can change the end payload, they can’t tell you the specifics because of the massive variances in personal customizations.
You’re asking them to give you an exact number that doesn’t exist until it’s built and ready for delivery.
I added running boards at the dealership when I bought mine, guess what, less payload and that’s NOT in the sticker. Sound proofing? Less payload. Bed protector, less payload. They just can’t tell you mate.
Its all capitalism. In germany, people also buy larger and larger suvs and just a couple minutes ago i saw a petition for the EU to limit car soze growth. Its infinitely braindead. You dont need a car the size of a small house. Streets are not your property. I would limit individual cars to the smallest size possible. Driving a car isnt just bad for the environment, it is also a logistical nightmare. Therefore, the benefit of the many trumps the benefit of the few.
And also, can’t do a thing about blinding headlights in giant suvs nope not a thing.
I’m curious how many folks in the US basically go broke from truck payments and interest rates. I do pretty well working in tech and I still gasp whenever I look at truck prices here. They’re a massive fucking ripoff—even small trucks like the Ranger and Tacoma. I probably walk past folks on the daily that are paying 4-digits every month for a stupid status symbol, while they get paid like shit.
While I don’t entirely agree with the sentiment of your post. I will sure add my two cents:
I travel for work and have learned the Chrysler Pacifica minivan rental cars are unbeatable machines for loading equipment and driving long distances. The seats fold right down into the floor and I can load it to the ceiling with my Pelican cases. The larger crossover SUVs are just sedans that somebody attached a bike pump to and inflated the metal between the inside and outside of the vehicle. There ain’t shit for space anymore. Also the Pacifica is comfy af.
Also also, you don’t have to lift your heavy shit 4 feet off the ground… Big bonus.
Yeah! Minivans are the best for hauling people or stuff.
