The battle lines are being drawn in the court of public opinion. Now the question becomes how steadfast is the public support behind demanding a peaceful yet forceful resolution to this conflict and finally ending this apartheid regime.
Public perception outside Israel has affected a total of 0 policy decisions in the country
I just want my country to stop knob slobbing these fucking fascists.
Because they keep getting money from the US. The US tap has to be turned off.
Um, actually… it currently IS turned off until the house gets it’s act together. Of course, the sink is filled to the brim with soap and plates, so it will be a while before the water runs out - but it will make the genocidal plate scrubbing of Gaza a bit harder without the tap turned on.
Israel is too important for the USA’s goals and stature in the area for public perception is the US to change the flow of money.
And in practise, Israel is not getting money but weapons systems, which is quite lucrative for the US
How successful has the court of public opinion been in influencing the outcome of Israel conflict before?
Very. Israel has been on several benders that were curtailed due to international opinion. Unfortunately it’s never outrightly solved the issue.
It was successful against South African Apartheid. There’s a reason conservatives are trying to literally outlaw the BDS Israel movement. (Boycott, Divest, Sanction)
Pretty effective. It’s backlash to Israel that has stopped Netanyahu from wiping palestine off the map.
Israel is a small country that relies on the implicit assumption that Western countries will defend it if a large invasion ever comes to be. If they didn’t need some considerable international support, they would have ethnically cleansed the whole of Palestine already.
Imagine how angry and disappointed our ancestors would be knowing that the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door, make millions selling spyware tools and then carpet bomb hospitals because anyone can be a terrorist. Meanwhile Sweden has had literal gunmen attack youth campus.
Now imagine that you’re actually a hardcore supporter of a Jewish homeland, or Zionism so to speak, and then imagine that this is the hell your government has created and nobody in power could be bothered building a road or a school but depends on a million dollar empire in a faraway land to provide them billions of dollars of weaponry, guns, tanks etc while they claim the country is under 24-7 threat. When you really think about it it’s almost like if it was imaginary or true it wouldn’t matter, because dogma and paranoia overrides any sense of logic with these people, meanwhile they’re literally unironically spreading their little paranoia and fear by knowingly selling spyware to dictatorships to target “dissidents”
You could have been born yesterday, or be a hundred years old, and you would still have known where energy and LOVE has been squandered
the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door
Ignoring the borderline antisemitism there, in reality the people of the region were essentially abandoned by the West to fight it out. The Arab League didn’t like the results of the UN vote, and so riots broke out and the violence escalated into a war in which the Zionists were victorious against 7 Arab nations. To be clear, I’m not saying it was moral or ethical for the Zionists to settle land that was already inhabited by Arabs in the first place (it wasn’t), but that ship had long since sailed by 1948. My point is there was a very serious war over the land and no one was “given” anything. After the war, the Western powers agreed to enforce the 1949 armistice borders, and began supporting Israel materially because they were seen as a counterpoint to Soviet-Arab relations.
It follows that the point of support for Israel has never been “love, peace and prosperity”, but a geopolitical calculation, and one that has been wildly successful in maintaining Western hegemony in a region of the world that has never been particularly receptive to Western liberalism. Because of its geopolitical positioning, Israel is under constant threat, as evidenced by the Six Day War, two Intifadas, the bus & cafe bombings of the 90s & 00s, and the frequent rocket attacks of more recent times. Yes, they are under attack because they are unwelcome in the region due to their history of violence against native Arabs, but that doesn’t make the fear of Israelis irrational or paranoid - just hypocritical. It doesn’t justify the violence, but it does perpetuate it.
And so the clearest route to peace was through the normalization of relations between Israel and its Arab/Islamic neighbors, leading to a gradual detente and eventually a regional consensus. This latest flare-up of the conflict is a major setback in that effort, though, and speculatively, that aspect of it may be intentional on the part of Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.
And if support for Israel stops Palestine and countries like Iran will kill everyone they can in Israel and the country will be replaced by another extremist country lead by terrorists.
Peaceful yet forceful?
They probably mean forceful as in strong, not nonviolent. Like the world needs to band up and tell Israel to cut their shit out like they did to South Africa.
^ Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Thank you.
And I remember that Mandela died until one day I flicked on the telly and found out apparently not
I can’t remember what happened in South Africa. I was young and doing a lot of drugs then. Is it possible for this to end similarly?
I mean probably yes. What ended the Apartheid was immense pressure from the international community up to and including sanctions. That’s what the BSD movement aims to do, but it doesn’t have much steam right now.
What people seem to forget is that the international sanctions started AFTER violent actions are done by anti apartheid activists in South Africa. Such violent actions happened after what? Ding ding ding, the non violent protesting which ends in the deaths of the protesters. Fun fact, did you know Nelson Mandela is designated as a terrorist until 2008? And he got elected as South Africa president in 1994. There’s 14 years after he got democratically elected as a president that he’s still designated as a terrorist.
I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, even if you read about Islam, there are actually rules of engagement in Islamic teachings. But after what happened during Great March of Return which is a peaceful protest done by Palestinians that resulted in IDF snipers killing peaceful Palestinians. What the fuck do you expect is going to happen after decades of occupation and humiliation? Do you want Palestinians to be a perfect victim? To just roll over and die? Just to let the apartheid state murder them and reduce their population to be so small that you feel bad about them because they can do nothing? Like what the US or Canada did to their indigenous population?
Look, if something like this happened to you, what are you going to do? Just roll over and let some dude from Brooklyn take your home?
My family’s home country is a country that got colonized by a lot of European countries, the Portuguese, the Spaniards, the Brits, even the Japanese got their turn colonizing my home country. And did you know what happened after we proclaimed our independence? Our colonizers came back and invaded us saying what we did is “illegal” and forced us to a bloody war of 4 years that cost more than 100,000 lives. If that kind of thing happened today, I bet you a billion dollars that the people who fought for their independence will be labeled as a terrorist.
Thanks.
Here’s a really great refresher on that exact topic from @Tony that I thought was really good if you’re interested.
Ah, I see. Thanks.
Israel is not an apartheid regime. That is silly.
deleted by creator
Remind me who gave Israelis the right to their homeland and international recognition of statehood again?
I vaguely remember it was given, just like how language was given to us. And it can all be taken away. Everything. All taken away and destroyed. Without mercy.
Israel has full political and military control of Palestinian land. They control every aspect of their lives. Remember when Jewish people where placed into ghettos and they each had different insignia that would indicate where they were from and were they could travel and what freedoms they had? Israel does the same thing with palestinians.
deleted by creator
According to Amnesty International, the world’s leading human rights organisation: “Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control.” According to B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories: “The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls an apartheid regime.”
Israel is no apartheid regime. Thats silly.
Give it a couple of years. Now that Hamas have upped the ante the whole thing will come to its logical conclusion. Netanyahu and the Israel military won’t stop until Israel will take over the entirety of former Palestine. Eventually it will become another South Africa, with non-Jewish people as second class citizens.
This is already in effect in Israeli territory but overlooked because there are still supposed to be independent Palestinian areas. When those are gone there will be no pretense anymore.
You would think they’d be a little less racist about things, but hey, these are the assholes who literally murdered Jesus hahaha
What does the ADL think of B’Tselem?
I’m not sure I give a fuck what either think, but it’s clearly not unbiased.
They’ve self described themselves as that in the past before term became criminalised in the early 2000s
It’s at least debatable and certainly not obvious.
Israel is very very obviously an apartheid state.
What exactly does it mean to be an apartheid state?
Apartheid was explicitly racialized discrimination. White citizens and black citizens had vastly different rights under the law. Black South African citizens, for example, couldn’t vote for parliamentary representatives by 1959.
Israel is different, in that most legal discrimination is on the basis of citizenship. Arab-Israeli citizens face a lot of private racism, but their legal rights are completely different vs Arabs in Palestine without Israeli citizenship.
The difference between Arab Israelis and people in Gaza isn’t racial, it’s whether they lived in Gaza or in what was partitioned into Israel, and if they fled during the 1948 war or not.
Israel’s regime is deeply problematic in many ways. Whether it’s aparthied or not seems mostly in how you generalize your definition of apartheid. If apartheid must be explicitly racialized discrimination against citizens, Israel is obviously not an apartheid state. If discriminating against non-citizens counts, Israel is an apartheid state.
Dude the state can take your citizenship away, if the state was destroyed your citizenship wouldn’t mean shit.
Consider all of that and then now imagine that there is a state that has a sizable number of people without citizenship that the system has no current means of sustaining or helping except to bomb their stuff.
Clearly genocide and a good move for money laundering, but look man I don’t have a horse in the race, I just observe and I wanted it to become transparent that the issue is ironically, not worse, but dumber, not because of a lack of transparency or obfuscation, but because of the fact that this is a system, and a collective mindset that ought to be challenged if not addressed
Removed by mod
If you don’t want apartheid and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, then you want to rape festival-goers. Those are the only two choices!
As someone who has spent a long time arguing with these morons, just ignore them. There are people who are misinformed and people who love sucking Israel’s dick/hate Palestinians. This is the latter case.
I’m from Bristol. Haven’t seen a single Israeli flag or show of support for Israel in this conflict, but I have seen loads of Palestinian flags waved around, and even witnessed a march last week.
I think public opinion has drastically changed in favour of Palestine.
Israel has the support of powerful governments the world over, it doesn’t need the support of a hundred thousand marchers. This is why they get away with what they’ve done for decades.
Same as for South Africa, basically. Segregation started in 1908. Formal apartheid in 1948. Full on boycotts with government support late 1980’s, and 1990 the regime fell.
deleted by creator
I’d say we’re looking at a generalized propaganda failure here all across Europe and most of the world - ten years ago you were banned off any sizable English-language forum for calling Israel genocidal… that’s simply not the case any longer.
People have better access to information now.
I’d say that’s a big factor to it, yes. And it’s not just in regards to Israel - the people at the top had the information tap perfectly in hand until the internet came around to spoil all that. That’s why you see so many attempts to clamp down on the internet - everything from AI surveillance to Phony Stark taking a $44 billion hit to “fix” sites like Twitter.
Yet here they are, pretending Israel is genocidal
I think a large part of the issue is that the settlements themselves are actually a reflection of Israel failing to develop vertically. Even without picking a side, even if we ignore the ridiculous hypocrisy of Israel for selling literal spyware tools like Pegasus for the Saudis and other dictators to use on their own citizens and commit murder, the reality is that Israel’s current problem with terrorism is entirely of their own making, because they’ve funded settlements and wasted time and money when they’ve had more than 20 years since the Nakba, Fatah and had millions of dollars of US funding and done fuck all. Mate, you could be a hardcore Zionist and supporter of the state of Israel, and still think that they’ve done a shit job.
deleted by creator
My experience is the opposite.
I have a lot of Jewish friends and live in a place with a lot of Jewish people, and I see plenty who support Israel and have no problem being loud about their unequivocal support for Israels response. While the comments from my Jewish friends who don’t support the response have been much more muted. Except for one girl who is pretty pissed that her suffering from the attacks is being used to justify what she calls is atrocities against the civilians of Gaza. My neighbor even told me over drinks this weekend that he keeps his mouth shut about it because he fears the retaliation (primarily social) from his Jewish community about the fact that he strongly disagrees with Israel’s response.
deleted by creator
This is the way.
That’s not the reason.
The reason is because Israel decided to squander any good-will they had by launching a massively disproportionate attack. Public sympathy was with them for while.
The reason is because Israel decided to squander any good-will
There’s a very big difference between “good will” and “luxuriously-funded propaganda” - every measure Israel has taken against Palestinians in the last seventy years has been “massively disproportionate.”
You are getting downvoted but you are objectively correct. It only took a few days for Israel to squander any goodwill they had after the attack. And they’ve been squandering good will for decades. I grew up in a Jewish community and it’s amazing to see how fast they destroy sympathy for their cause, if I didn’t know any better I would think it’s self sabotage.
Good, pity the people’s views are seldom represented in government
Bristol has a very left wing lean, I’ve seen the graffiti around. It’s a vocal minority. Public opinion is mainly indifference but condemnation of both sides, maybe a bit on Israel’s side right now. The way Hamas has conducted themselves I would argue has seriously damaged the perception of the Palestinian cause.
Fact that it’s even that close when there’s a lot of Western bias towards Israel and with how Muslims are often painted as terrorists by the media is a testament to how badly Israel fucked up.
Also that was before the videos of kids being murdered and traumatized started streaming in. Although MSM buries these because the UK is pretty much an Israeli proxy now.
Genuine question: How many, in term of proportion, if you can estimate, of the protesters are non-Muslim, or simply say white people/Chinese etc? I am saying this because they’re a lot of Muslims living near cities, especially London, Manchester and Birmingham. Having many muslims protesting for the Palestinians is no brainer, as they share the same values. It’s much more impactful if the protesters are consisted of many different religious demographics.
Nice job Londoners.
Removed by mod
Removed. I’ll try to make this as simple to understand as possible… You can’t advocate against the genocide of a people by promoting the genocide of another people. I don’t care if the argument is “Palestinians need to die so Israel can exist.” Or “Israel needs to die so Palestinians can exist.” Neither view is acceptable.
Israel is not a people. It’s a genocidal fascist neocolony. Palestine needs to be decolonized. I’m not advocating for the genocide of French people when I’m saying that Algeria needs to be free. The same applies to Palestine.
So how, exact, do you see the process of making Israel not exist proceeding? Genuinely, I’m curious. Do you really see absolutely no way for a state of Israel to exist in some fashion without the genocide of Palestinians? If not, then what exactly are you proposing?
They want them to die, that’s why they just downvote lol
It’s just another emotional moron commenting based on feels as they have zero fucking clue about the actual context, and they have no interest to learn either. Virtue signaling to make themselves feel better I guess
Edit: keep upvoting the comment that literally is calling for the end of Israel as they “don’t have the right to exist” using some shit strawman with Palestinian genocide as a fulcrum as if that’s what Israel is. The is gov does not define the people just like Hamas doesn’t define Palestine. Are you fucking kidding me?
Israel doesn’t have the right to exist? What kind of brain dead shit are you talking about??
Israel absolutely deserves to exist, they were placed there after they themselves were genocided. THAT is the problem, they were placed there and it’s fucked everything.
Israel absolutely deserves to exist just like Palestine.
If Israel’s very existance is dependent on the genocide of Palestinians, and it is, then it doesn’t deserve to exist. Rights are for people, not countries so kindly stop saying that “Israel has a right to exist”. It doesn’t, Palestinians have a right to exist without being killed and ethnically cleansed from their native lands.
Jesus fucking Christ, how are you this fucking stupid? Israel’s existence is not dependent on the genocide of Palestinians, that’s just a bullshit strawman you just pulled out of your ass so you could knock it down. Rights are indeed for people but guess what, when people say Israel deserves to exist they’re talking about the Israeli people. Those people deserve to not be killed or ethnically purged from their homes as well, the difference is the Israel never should have been placed there. But guess what they were. So what do the Israeli citizens do? If we ask you, I guess your stance is go fuck themselves because of what the Israeli gov has done over the many years. Do you not see how reductive and fucked that is?
Personally, I have always been a free Palestine supporter and a strong hater of Israeli gov but the mindless emotional backlash like the one in your comment only enables more hate and bullshit. Israel deserves to exist they just don’t deserve to exist on other people’s lands. That’s a big fucking difference to the emotional bullshit you vomited out. When you say “it (Israel) doesn’t (have the right to exist)”, it sounds quite similar to the Hamas goal of the extermination of Israel. Hamas doesn’t represent the Palestinian people, yet here you are with this bullshit. No, I’m not saying if you don’t suck netanyahoo’s dick you’re an antisemite, I’m saying if you seriously can’t see that there are an insane number of innocents on each side of this conflict, then you are lost and unreasonable.
Israel absolutely deserves to exist just like Palestine. Jesus fucking Christ
Israel, the Jewish state, doesn’t have the right to exist. That doesn’t mean the Jews should be pushed into the sea or whatever, but there’s absolutely no reason a country that goes “We’re the Jewish homeland. Everyone else can eat shit” needs to exist. This is the 21st century, we should oppose the creation of explicit ethnostates.
I think the point is that we saw just two weeks ago the methods that Hamas would use to un-exist Israel, so it’s not that hard to read between the lines of what people mean when they say that Israel should not exist.
We’re the Jewish homeland. Everyone else can eat shit" needs to exist.
This isn’t really an accurate description of Israel though. Israel isn’t the multi-ethnic paradise it should be, but Israeli Arabs have full legal rights and are pretty well-integrated. An Israeli Arab medic was actually murdered at the music festival when he approached Hamas members in an attempt to negotiate with them.
I would agree that Israel should not make full legal rights dependent on being a Jew, but it doesn’t do that, even though there are some actions it’s taken, particularly under Netanyahu, to tie Israeli identity more strictly to Judaism. That stuff pisses off quite a lot of secular Israelis as well.
And philosophical quibbling about the role of nation states aside, the fact of the matter is that Israel does exist and it’s people are not going to go anywhere. Given that Hamas’ explicit aim is to murder them all, Israel is going to do anything and everything to resist them. Palestinian statehood cannot and will never proceed if it’s dependent on the violent eradication of Israel. Fortunately, it does not need to depend on that, though Israel must do more to facilitate an actual peaceful conclusion, such as dismantling settlements. But regardless, violence is simply not a productive option for the Palestinian cause, and it never will be. It must be abandoned.
I would agree that Israel should not make full legal rights dependent on being a Jew, but it doesn’t do that,
It doesn’t on paper, but Arabs face discrimination by the government in many aspect of their lives, from education to building permits to how likely they are to get killed by the police (since 1948 the only protestors to get killed by the police have been Arabs).
Given that Hamas’ explicit aim is to murder them all, Israel is going to do anything and everything to resist them.
Didn’t they change that part of their charter in 2017? I mean, they’ve wanted a ceasefire since the very beginning of this mess (and got two in 2008 and 2012 that fell apart due to Israel not following them), but they made it official that they want a 2-state solution in 2017.
But regardless, violence is simply not a productive option for the Palestinian cause, and it never will be. It must be abandoned.
The thing is that, seeing the state of the West Bank (and before that how the Oslo accords failed), non-violence is also not working. We all want non-violence to work, but in the past 20 years Israel has given no indication that they’re interested in a solution, violent or nonviolent, to the conflict…
The PLO abandoned violence 30 years ago. It didn’t work, which is why people flocked to Hamas.
Aha and why does Israel deserve to exist exactly? I couldn’t care less if every single country in the world disappeared tomorrow. Again, rights are for people, not countries and if your statehood relies on genocide and ethnic cleansing, it needs to go. Call me sympathetic to Hamas talking points all you want. I certainly don’t support their ideology but at the end of the day, one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter and armed struggle against an occupying force is legal under international law. Hamas isn’t even recognized as a terrorist organization by the UN. Hamas could be flowerpower hippies and they’d still be called “terrorists” by Israel and its allies. Really shows how meaningless that word has become.
Looked to be a lot more than 100k to me
British media likes to undersell any and all protests, they typically take their photos at the end when there’s a much lower number of people and then knock at least half off the number of people who attended. Oh and if one person brings a joke flag/banner then you better believe pictures of that from different angles will be all over the place rather than any pictures of actual protestors.
deleted by creator
BBC is state run, of course they’re going to slant things in favor of the establishment
300,000 apparently
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The shipment of 20 trucks bringing medical supplies offered limited relief to Gaza’s 2.3 million population, under fire and with barely anything to eat or drink.
The home secretary, Suella Braverman, has previously labelled the slogan antisemitic and claimed that it is “widely understood” to call for the destruction of Israel.
A small group of protesters held a separate demonstration in central London on Saturday in which a large banner read, “Muslim armies, rescue the people of Palestine.”
The Met said it was deploying 1,000 officers to police the demonstration, as well as mounting extra patrols around synagogues and places of worship following a 1,350% increase in hate crimes against Jewish people and a 140% rise in Islamophobic incidents.
The Met said there had been “pockets of disorder and some instances of hate speech” in the series of vigils, protests and public gatherings, but that most had “been lawful and taken place without incident”.
In Australia, thousands marched through central Sydney after police gave the event the green light, and rallies were also held in Perth, Hobart and Brisbane.
The original article contains 666 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 73%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Hardly surprised, the tube outlet right under parliament had pro palestinian posters last I was there
Serious question: would this be historically considered Casus Belli for Israel to declare war against the UK?
deleted by creator
Fuck Israel.
Well, the Israeli government, anyway.
I mean, how is the democracy in Israel?
I hear the media is somewhat free there
Israelis should’ve taken some action the past years
Aka “I don’t care who vowed to do terrorism, fuck those who dare to respond to it”
Which side are you referring to?
Terrorism is being done by hamas.
Among others.
Yeah. When you attack buildings that fire rockets at you, this is not terrorism.
What is the point of these protests?
The most charitable view:
To show western governments that the population doesn’t just blindly side with the Israeli government. A major difference between the two sides who are committing heinous acts, is that one side is a government committing genocide, and the other is a military organization (not the government) which was made in response to being forcibly expelled from their land by that government.
Neither side should be killing innocent civilians, but we should not be collectively taking Israel’s side, like is traditionally done.The least charitable view:
Because people want to get away with yelling Nazi-shit in public.To say that Israelis aren’t the only people needing protection.
Mostly to vent out anti-Semitic frustration in a way that is politically viable
Don’t confuse criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism. Otherwise you’re just saying “Israel can do no wrong, even if they’re doing war crimes.”
Maybe if terrorists didn’t hide behind human shields, Israel would’ve been accused of far less war crimes. Grabbing a toddler after setting off a bomb and murdering a crowd is basically Hamas’ strategy.
Maybe if Israel hadn’t been doing everything they could to drive Palestinians from their land for decades they wouldn’t have helped grow these terrorist groups that are lashing out at them.
Do we know who actually fired the first shot back in 1948? The UN shat on the Palestinians by giving half their land to Israel, clearly neither side was happy about it, but who shot first? It’s been tit for tat ever since, and clearly the Palestinians have come off far worse.
Tit for tat ever since… with Israel receiving plenty of international support and an Iron Curtain supplied by the US.
It doesn’t matter if Mike and Steve have been going at each other since Elementary school. If Mike grows up to be Mike Tyson and Steve grows up to be an accountant, then Mike is the bigger asshole if he keeps coming around to punch Steve in the face, and screams “See? He deserves it! Both Sides!” if Steve gets lucky sucker punch in on occasion.
All I see from you is pro terrorist bullshit. Fuck Hamas and I hope Israel kills every Hamas sack of shit out there. Hamas at this point could do the right thing and surrender, and spare the civilians, but they’re too cowardly to do that.
All you see from me is Anti Israeli Government bullshit. When the Israeli government spends decades committing crimes against humanity the end result is not a surprise. When no one listens to the suffering of Palestinians what options are they left with?
I call bullshit, on several fronts with what you said. Decades of crimes against humanity is unsubstantiated. What you call crimes against humanity is likely debatable at best and an outright lie at the worst. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I agree with the sentiment that “Palestinians” are an invention from the last century. You have people who moved to the area under the Ottoman Empire, and the world decided back in 1947 that Israel shall again be a nation. When you have the despicable acts of the PLO and extremist organizations spring up from what appeared to be peaceful coexistence, this narrative about the light of Palestinians and the “freedom fighters” who cut infants’ heads off can go pound sand.
I don’t want the innocents harmed either, but I do believe Hamas must be exterminated. If that means flattening a building that they’re hiding in and using human shields, so be it. The people who support Hamas are making their bed, and we should not be surprised by the humanitarian crisis going on when the cowardly Hamas militants hide behind innocent families.
Exterminate Hamas, that’s my take on it. Don’t like it? Too fucking bad, it’s going to happen anyway and you can wring your lying hands all you want.
deleted by creator
Israel has been treating Palestinians like shit for decades. Surprise surprise that resulted in extremist groups forming.
Both Hamas and Israel are shit, but the important thing to remember is PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS. Commiting war crimes on Palestinians is unrelated to stopping Hamas.
You can’t put political pressure on a terrorist group to stop killing civilians, you can put political pressure on your government to stop supporting a government killing civilians.Israel needs to stop doing war crimes *and" Hamas needs to be dealt with as a terrorist group.
deleted by creator
The UK is not supporting Hamas, so their is no point in protesting their support for Hamas. If you want to fly to Iran and protest their support of Hamas, that would make sense.
“So what’s stopping Palestinians from putting pressure on them?”
What would you do if you were the Palestinian in this question. seriously. Hamas is not held an election since 2006 what would you do to put pressure on Hamas while you lived in the Gaza strip?
The answer to your question is lots of stuff is stopping the Palestinians from putting pressure on Hamas.
deleted by creator
You don’t like what Israel is doing, fine, what’s your alternative?
To start with: not threatening to carpet bomb civilians just because they might get some members of Hamas as well. This one should be obvious.
K, you pointed out a not, how about what you would do? Go and shake Hamas’ hand and thank the for all the children they’ve butchered? Hamas needs exterminated, and I don’t see a way to deal with them when they hide behind human shields like the shitstained cowards they are.
I’m not going to deny that antisemitism isn’t muddying these waters to some extent. Sadly, that’s always the case when Israel comes up.
But with regards to the treatment of Hamas in relation to the Israeli government, one is an ad hoc terrorist organisation, and the other is a functioning democracy with ties to west. Hamas is already considered a terrorist organisation, what more is there to do? I hate to use an Americanism, but they’re the “underdog” here. Israel is threatened, yes, but they have unprecedented control of the situation when compared to their aggressors.
PS EDIT not to deny that Israel has historically been an aggressor
deleted by creator
The last vote was what almost 20 years ago? Before many of the people in Gaza were even of age, anyway. I’m not going to argue that Hamas doesn’t act as a de facto government of Gaza, but it is not remotely on the same level as Israel.
Israel has killed more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis. Punished a population is a war crime. Israel should really know about this
deleted by creator
Exactly,
and then HAMAS has to stop proclaiming the destruction of Israel.
Might help is Israel hadn’t been proclaiming the destruction of Palestinians for decades. Too late to go back and not do that, but they could stop doing it NOW.
Israel never proclaimed the destruction of Palestinians. Where did you get that?
Right, right, they just proclaimed Palestine doesn’t exist:
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich delivered a speech in Paris saying the notion of a Palestinian people was artificial.
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation. There is no Palestinian history. There is no Palestinian language,” he said in France late Sunday. He spoke at a lectern draped with what appeared to be an image showing the map of Israel that included the occupied West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
If someone claims a culture doesn’t exist at all, sure sounds like they want to wipe out that culture to people who understand that it does exist.
(I found this by simply searching “Israel statements on Palestine” and it was the 2nd link. The first link had plenty of examples of Israel’s war crimes, but no direct statements from Israel. )
Well if that isn’t the most outlandish illogical leap I’ve seen in a while…
In London, some of the protesters chanted, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, despite a controversy around the slogan’s meaning.
From the article.
Nothing antisemitic about that. Wouldn’t matter what race, religion, ethnicity the apartheid occupiers were.
deleted by creator
Does pro-“the defense of the innocent” and pro-human rights make more sense to you.
Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners also received a lot of backlash from the British LGBT community for supporting a group that was stereotyped as homophobic and intolerant. And yet:
The alliances which the campaign forged between the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community and British labour groups proved to be an important turning point in the progression of LGBT matters in the United Kingdom. Miners’ labour groups began to support, endorse and participate in various gay pride events throughout the UK, including leading London’s Lesbian and Gay Pride parade in 1985. At the 1985 Labour Party conference in Bournemouth, a resolution committing the party to the support of LGBT rights passed, due to block voting support from the National Union of Mineworkers. The miners’ groups were also among the most outspoken allies of the LGBT community in the 1988 campaign against Section 28.
deleted by creator
Didn’t know all those queers were moving to Palestine
And since it is illegal to be queer in Judaism as well, are they not allowed to take a side or voice their opinion?
It’s not illegal to be queer in Israel. Israel is not theocratic. Judaism, although differs to some degree, is on the more accepting part of the spectrum. It is also not illegal per se in Palestine as well but they often go to Israel to escape from very real threats from their family or the police. Israel is the only country where pride parade is held in the Middle East. Hamas, on the other hand, executes queer people very openly.
It’s difficult to separate information about Palestinian gays from the Israeli gay scene. Since Palestine is a very homophobic culture many Palestinian gays and lesbians are forced against their cultural and religious will to hide in Israel where homosexuality is much more acceptable and, indeed, protected. Three stories are presented here about gay living and loving in these two lands torn by tribal warfare.
From GlobalGayz.com
By many metrics, Israel is considered a trailblazer on LGBTQ issues. Openly gay Israelis have been permitted to serve in the military since the early 1990s, nearly two decades before the U.S. military formally permitted gays to serve openly.
From myjewishlearning.com
Can you guys just go back to reddit already?
They live in a country where they are abble to live a life in a more open and accepted way and can’t understand that the people they are standing up would beat them, stone them or kill them without hesitation.
So your solution is to kill all Muslims? If Nazi’s said something similar, would you agree with them?
Yeah I don’t even know but hey I guess it looks like a lot of people don’t like Benji much any more
A lot of people hate that the Hamas atrocities have been weaponized by Netanyahu and he is basically doing this war to escape scrutiny in Israel.
Why?
Do you also think the same about Ukraine, which is a pretty himophobic place?
deleted by creator
Can you provide any sources of members of the LGBTQ community being stoned to death in Ukraine?
Sure, the moment you can provide a source for me claiming that happens.
to be fair, if you wave an LGBTQ flag at any protest on TERF island and you’ll probably get harrassed
Seems like they’re trying to shoehorn their cause into another.
Since many of us left Reddit without any desire to give them traffic, could you please put a warning with your link?
Tbh I feel like this is a silly request.
No worries, I’ll just skip any links you post. Thanks.
Just add Reddit to any blocklists you use.
I think the fact that it starts with https://www.reddit.com is probably enough of a warning.
They inserted the link into text. By client doesn’t display the full address ever, but for reddit links it seems to just say (/comments/). I’m assuming this is a legacy of being a reddit app (Sync). I’m pretty sure Lemmy links show the exact same thing.
You are assuming a desktop browser and a mouse. Lots of us browse from a phone app.
I am using Eternity
ublock origin with Firefox? Pihole?
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Good refutation. It’s also a satrie page and just fits your stance so well that I thought you might enjoy it.
Whoooooosh.
deleted by creator
Pretty sure the Israelites taking over the grounds of Palestine happened before HAMAS ever existed.
Palestinians in Gaza have been mistreated for over a decade, they can only enter Israel during the day and have to come back by nightfall. Israel closed the border between Gaza and Egypt. People have been trapped in Gaza and treated like cattle for so long. They have been denied healthcare and basic needs. And the moment a few palestinians revolt against the oppression (even though killings by hamas are horrible), the world denounces palestine as a whole? Have you read about what Israel has been doing for the past decade or so? I think that in it’s core, it’s a fight for freedom. Hamas’ approach is absolutely terrifying, but palestinians can’t just stand and watch. How can you make sure your opinions reach the government when they don’t want to listen to you? That’s the entire point of religious conflicts, Israeli government hates palestinians for just existing. And you tell me that palestinians are supposed to sympathise with the killings in Israel, when Israel has done (and continues to do) atrocities on their people ten times as worse?
Was it horrible for british colonies to fight against the british empire? What would you think the narrative would be if Britain had a colony right now which was trying to revolt? What about everything that the US has done to destroy economies in the middle east, just to line the pockets of the rich? How is this not obvious?
deleted by creator
Almost all freedom movements have extremists. The existence of extremists doesn’t justify oppressing innocent civilians. Focusing on Hamas is important, sure. But what’s a LOT more important is how Israel is (and has been) treating Palestinians. A complete disregard and lack of accountability for Israel’s actions while simultaneously asking the oppressed to condemn Hamas sounds a bit too insane to me.
There’s a reason why pro-palestine protestors do not talk about Hamas: they don’t support Hamas. But talking about Hamas takes the attention away from the crap that Israel has been putting Gaza through for more than a decade. Sure, both need to be heard. But right now, what’s not being done (and in fact, actively ignored) is talking about Israel’s actions: making it seem like a response to Hamas’ recent attacks even though it’s been happening for so long.
deleted by creator
I mean, it’s a religious conflict. There’s not going to be any satisfactory solution for both parties really. It’s still absolutely horrible that they resort to violence over this, both the israeli government and hamas are to blame for this, and as always, the ones caught in the crossfire are innocent civilians. However, if residents of Gaza were allowed to leave, most would flee anyway, despite it (possibly) being their land. Preventing that is something Israel is certainly to be blamed for. Of course, one can make an argument about terrorists escaping along with them, but yeah.
Also, just because you can’t change history doesn’t mean that you ignore it, but anyway.
- Nearly half of all Palestinians in Gaza hadn’t even been born then.
deleted by creator
Hamas is nothing in comparison to Israels crimes against the Palestinians.
deleted by creator
Are you OK?
deleted by creator
Good thing no one cares about your opinion then.
Looks like you care enough to post a comment 😂
I care about him thinking other people care. I just dont care about his actual opinions.
deleted by creator
Either way I don’t care
deleted by creator
You probably don’t understand empathy borne out of being oppressed. Liberal western person has had their ancestors fight and die for the liberalism they enjoy in the present.