This is an informal fallacy, “letting perfect be the enemy of good.” You have to feel out people who are doing this and try to determine what their angle is. Usually they have one, some kind of asinine hobby-horse or ulterior motive, and you need to figure out quickly if they’re arguing in good faith or not.
Because usually they’re not, and inevitably you’ll find that as soon as you’re done addressing one point they’ve moved the goalposts somewhere else.
I just heard this phrase, and I’m so happy because I’ve needed a word for it. People who do this annoy me so much. Like with EVs especially. “Well we should be using mass transit_.” Yes, we should, but that will take a very long time. Let’s take a good solution now, which is better than the bad solution that is currently being used, and we will continue to build and push for the perfect solution at the same time.
Strive for perfect, but accept a good solution in the meantime.
Even with good public transit I’d have to sell my house and move to get a job and travel with public transit. I feel like that’s a bit excessive if I had to get another one and move more. My commutes 250 miles a week and I was using a tank of gas a week. Went electric and I use 20-30kW to charge per day. 16k miles in on my first year. Hopefully one day I’ll get solar installed and reduce even more too.
Solar is pretty damn sweet. My only gripe is that I installed my system before getting an EV, so during a couple winter months I sometimes have to use electricity from the grid. Not a lot, but just enough to make me mad that I’m not 100% self sufficient. Had I gotten an EV before installing solar, I could have gotten a bigger system.
My power company has some rules that say I can’t do net metering with them if I install a system that was greater than 100% of my average annual usage or some BS.
Ouch that sucks. I don’t want a roof install though that seems the most common. I got a half acre open land with farm land east and west with no trees so I figured I could do a decent size system.
That’s awesome. There’s a guy I’ve met in a small town in Iowa that has a setup like that and he lets people use his Tesla charger since it doesn’t cost him anything.
Fully agree bud, kills me every time I hear “tracks to trails” or something else stupid. We had one going from our 10,000 person town through a few other towns to downtown of our nearby city. They proudly paved over it and made a 50 mile bike trail. Which sure, is nice but no one is going to go commute on a 50 mile bike trail. They already owned the land, that’s 80% of the battle and cost when it comes to building rail, why couldn’t they redo the rail, throw up a couple of concrete platforms, and build an easy commuter rail?
Because no one even thought of it as a possibility, that’s why. A simple little DMU (really electric would be great but let’s not push it in my imaginary scenario) could have moved hundreds (probably thousands) of people of day. But no, bike trail
Yeah a lot of people here are just like “Don’t own a car at all” and don’t know how most of the US is laid out. When a commute is 20 minutes by car and 2 hours by bus, it’s hard to still justify the bus. I’ll for sure be pushing for better bus service and transit, but I can’t force my wife to sit on a bus 4 hours a day just out of principals. EV is a good solution, but I’ll push for the better solution at the same time.
Never mind how the US is laid out, a lot of people – myself included – do not want to and will never live in an urban environment. I realize that makes the “fuckcars” contingent salty, but that’s just tough shit for them.
I’m big on urbanism and walkable cities and absolutely don’t mind people who don’t want to live in cities. We don’t tend to argue rural areas shouldn’t exist, but rather point out that suburban areas have a lot of problems and are way more common than they should be, when looking at demand for mixed use development, walkable cities, etc.
For what it’s worth, for most of human existence rural towns existed without need for cars, so there’s still some truth to the idea that America has been rebuilt for the car, even in rural areas. There’s a variety of explanations out there for why and how they worked, but one I’m a fan of is how many rural towns would organize around a central “main street”, and keep the houses near it while the rest of their land spread outward. That way food, entertainment, and neighbors were all still easily accessible despite the large average amount of land.
And tbh, even setting that aside, I don’t think many urbanists actually have an issue with rural areas. The movement really focuses on suburbia. A lot of the problems stem from suburbs being spread out like rural areas, but with city level amenities, without paying the amount of taxes to get those amenities that far out. Most notably, paved roads are extremely expensive to maintain and gas taxes are not high enough to pay for it. But to some extent most services suburbs get are going to be subsidized by those living in a nearby city, because it’s just so much cheaper to provide those services when everyone lives closer together. And besides the subsidization, suburbs (unlike both cities and rural towns) just have a lot of qualities to them that make them bad for the environment and unpleasant and dangerous to live in - I understand not wanting to live in a city, but no one thinks hour long commutes through rush hour traffic is a positive.
I respect that, but counter with it’s still easy go go green. EV for commuting with charging at home, if there is a bus system learning it and taking it when possible is great, and biking if you’re in a town makes a huge impact. At home, moving off of gas and going electric can reduce your footprint by a huge amount, and of course as the comic says adding solar panels can go a long way.
I’m currently learning to drive but I think, unfortunately, my first car will be ICE.
I live in a rented flat, so no way I can install a charging point.
The prices of the paid charging points near me mean that it’s close to parity with petrol here (UK).
The insurance on EVs is much higher than ICE at the moment, this is doubly important because as a new driver I’ll be paying a lot for the next 2 to 3 years.
I’ll be looking into various different vehicles when I’ve passed my practical test so I’m not ruling EVs or PHEVs yet, but it’s looking unlikely.
Understandable. Consider that one of the biggest things you can do is just buy a smaller vehicle. I gave up my car about 12 years ago, but I’m considering buying something like a Vespa now for errands around town. They get 90+ mpg! If you can’t go that small, just try not to buy bigger than what you need for 90% of trips.
For the last decade I’ve mostly rented vehicles for trips to the coast and things like that. Even if I did that once a month it would be far cheaper than owning a car. I recommend this route to anyone who doesn’t want to buy more car than they need.
Look, nothing wrong with an ICE especially starting off. Ease up on use, drive safe and swap when you are able. Don’t take on the worlds problems when you aren’t even secure in yourself yet - leave those sacrifices for us until you can.
This is one of the exceptions I still give, however, look into hybrid options. Newer hybrid can really reduce your emissions (and petrol bill). Even used ones are still pretty decent
I can totally understand that, I think its not a wise option to buy a new ICE car, but a cheap used older car can be a good option until you are able to buy an EV.
I have an ICE car as well, because it just didnt make sense for me to buy an EV a few years ago, I couldnt afford it and there wasnt a suitable one available in Germany.
I do use my bike quite a lot, so I dont think its too bad.
Working on it actually. We got the EV for the wife to replace a dying ICE vehicle, and we live about 20 miles away from her job, with no transit in between, so we were stuck with a car. For me, I won’t be replacing my car and I take the bus to work, but we are getting a train within the year, so I’m looking at possibly an ebike to get to the train station
But it’s not a good solution. In fact it’s not a solution at all. EVs aren’t going to save the environment, they’re going to perpetuate our reliance on personal vehicles.
Oh my god, that’s literally the point of the whole comment. You are offering a perfect solution, while the only alternative you offer is a bad solution. EVs are not perfect. They are an okay solution that is better than remaining on ICE.
That was literally the point. Small towns with populations of <10,000 are not going to build rail in the next decade. I would love for them to, but they’re not going to! So you’re solution for them to get to town where groceries are is to… continue using ICE while sitting on their hands waiting for rail/bus service that is not coming? If that’s your best solution then it’s not a solution.
Oh my go that’s literally the point of my whole comment. You stated that EVs are a good solution. They are not a solution at all.
It’s not a matter of perfect being the enemy of good, it’s a matter of people mistakenly thinking that personal EVs are a solution. They are not a solution at all, they only serve as placebo to make people feel good while while continuing the same habits and relying on the same infrastructure that caused all this in the first place.
That was literally the point. Continuing with the same sprawling, oversized infrastructure built for personal, usually single-occupancy vehicles is not going to solve climate change. We are so far gone the only real, actual, solutions are in fact drastic, society changing measures. So your solution is for us to keep doing the same thing we already are but with 20% less pollution? While the earth is already past the 1.5C global warming mark? If that’s your best solution then it’s not a solution.
EVs are here to save the automobile, not the environment.
I feel like I read somewhere about someone routing the Arizona air from outside into a dryer intake and running it without the heat and saving a big chunk in electricity too. It’s too bad I live in rain and humidity town.
Well, not to be that guy but given your specific example of a dryer there is a way you can get over half the way there. Get a heatpump dryer. They use 1/4th the amount of electricity as a standard electric dryer and can literally be plugged into a standard 110v 15A outlet they don’t need the big ass 220v 50a plug. Heavy items like thick beach towels take a bit longer but otherwise they function identically
Different country, all our dryers and appliances run off mains power - 220v 10amp. The big issue is that they can’t be mounted upside down, so we can’t have one.
Because you put them above the washing machine, and flip them upside down so you can reach the buttons - its a space thing. They even have mounting brackets they come with and the front panel removes so you can turn it upright. I never did though, mine are upside down. But I don’t care.
But yeah, means we can’t use heat pump or condensation dryers unless you have extra space.
Is it like a top load washer or something? I have the melee heat pump dryer and the matching washing machine and they come with a stacking kit. I don’t need to flip it upside down because all the controls are on the front anyway rather than the top
They are quite compact, as I am using them in an RV at the moment so I needed something capable of fitting through a 24 inch door and those were just fucking barely able to do it at 23 and a quarter inch
Top load washer, front load dryer. Its a lack of floor space - just uses the empty space above the washing machine. Out of one, into the next, towels over the shoulder to go on the line.
I never knew you could get stacking kits for heat pump dryers - just told that you can’t flip them so have to be on the floor
This is an informal fallacy, “letting perfect be the enemy of good.” You have to feel out people who are doing this and try to determine what their angle is. Usually they have one, some kind of asinine hobby-horse or ulterior motive, and you need to figure out quickly if they’re arguing in good faith or not.
Because usually they’re not, and inevitably you’ll find that as soon as you’re done addressing one point they’ve moved the goalposts somewhere else.
I just heard this phrase, and I’m so happy because I’ve needed a word for it. People who do this annoy me so much. Like with EVs especially. “Well we should be using mass transit_.” Yes, we should, but that will take a very long time. Let’s take a good solution now, which is better than the bad solution that is currently being used, and we will continue to build and push for the perfect solution at the same time.
Strive for perfect, but accept a good solution in the meantime.
Even with good public transit I’d have to sell my house and move to get a job and travel with public transit. I feel like that’s a bit excessive if I had to get another one and move more. My commutes 250 miles a week and I was using a tank of gas a week. Went electric and I use 20-30kW to charge per day. 16k miles in on my first year. Hopefully one day I’ll get solar installed and reduce even more too.
Solar is pretty damn sweet. My only gripe is that I installed my system before getting an EV, so during a couple winter months I sometimes have to use electricity from the grid. Not a lot, but just enough to make me mad that I’m not 100% self sufficient. Had I gotten an EV before installing solar, I could have gotten a bigger system.
My power company has some rules that say I can’t do net metering with them if I install a system that was greater than 100% of my average annual usage or some BS.
Ouch that sucks. I don’t want a roof install though that seems the most common. I got a half acre open land with farm land east and west with no trees so I figured I could do a decent size system.
That’s awesome. There’s a guy I’ve met in a small town in Iowa that has a setup like that and he lets people use his Tesla charger since it doesn’t cost him anything.
The thing with public transit vs EVs though is targeted towards governments and corporations, not necessarily to individuals
We already had it… I die a little inside every time I see the tracks when the roads are being resurfaced. Last ride was in the 40’s
Fully agree bud, kills me every time I hear “tracks to trails” or something else stupid. We had one going from our 10,000 person town through a few other towns to downtown of our nearby city. They proudly paved over it and made a 50 mile bike trail. Which sure, is nice but no one is going to go commute on a 50 mile bike trail. They already owned the land, that’s 80% of the battle and cost when it comes to building rail, why couldn’t they redo the rail, throw up a couple of concrete platforms, and build an easy commuter rail?
Because no one even thought of it as a possibility, that’s why. A simple little DMU (really electric would be great but let’s not push it in my imaginary scenario) could have moved hundreds (probably thousands) of people of day. But no, bike trail
It was all electric already built, and it was super extensive… It didn’t even have to deal with traffic
So, you got yourself a bicycle (e- or otherwise) yet?
Yeah? I even go grocery shopping with mine.
I’m yet to own my first car, but I certainly appreciate when people getting one go for EV over ICE.
Yeah a lot of people here are just like “Don’t own a car at all” and don’t know how most of the US is laid out. When a commute is 20 minutes by car and 2 hours by bus, it’s hard to still justify the bus. I’ll for sure be pushing for better bus service and transit, but I can’t force my wife to sit on a bus 4 hours a day just out of principals. EV is a good solution, but I’ll push for the better solution at the same time.
Never mind how the US is laid out, a lot of people – myself included – do not want to and will never live in an urban environment. I realize that makes the “fuckcars” contingent salty, but that’s just tough shit for them.
I’m big on urbanism and walkable cities and absolutely don’t mind people who don’t want to live in cities. We don’t tend to argue rural areas shouldn’t exist, but rather point out that suburban areas have a lot of problems and are way more common than they should be, when looking at demand for mixed use development, walkable cities, etc.
For what it’s worth, for most of human existence rural towns existed without need for cars, so there’s still some truth to the idea that America has been rebuilt for the car, even in rural areas. There’s a variety of explanations out there for why and how they worked, but one I’m a fan of is how many rural towns would organize around a central “main street”, and keep the houses near it while the rest of their land spread outward. That way food, entertainment, and neighbors were all still easily accessible despite the large average amount of land.
And tbh, even setting that aside, I don’t think many urbanists actually have an issue with rural areas. The movement really focuses on suburbia. A lot of the problems stem from suburbs being spread out like rural areas, but with city level amenities, without paying the amount of taxes to get those amenities that far out. Most notably, paved roads are extremely expensive to maintain and gas taxes are not high enough to pay for it. But to some extent most services suburbs get are going to be subsidized by those living in a nearby city, because it’s just so much cheaper to provide those services when everyone lives closer together. And besides the subsidization, suburbs (unlike both cities and rural towns) just have a lot of qualities to them that make them bad for the environment and unpleasant and dangerous to live in - I understand not wanting to live in a city, but no one thinks hour long commutes through rush hour traffic is a positive.
I respect that, but counter with it’s still easy go go green. EV for commuting with charging at home, if there is a bus system learning it and taking it when possible is great, and biking if you’re in a town makes a huge impact. At home, moving off of gas and going electric can reduce your footprint by a huge amount, and of course as the comic says adding solar panels can go a long way.
We used to have both I don’t know why governments threw out the extensive transit systems the US once had.
I’m currently learning to drive but I think, unfortunately, my first car will be ICE.
I’ll be looking into various different vehicles when I’ve passed my practical test so I’m not ruling EVs or PHEVs yet, but it’s looking unlikely.
Understandable. Consider that one of the biggest things you can do is just buy a smaller vehicle. I gave up my car about 12 years ago, but I’m considering buying something like a Vespa now for errands around town. They get 90+ mpg! If you can’t go that small, just try not to buy bigger than what you need for 90% of trips.
For the last decade I’ve mostly rented vehicles for trips to the coast and things like that. Even if I did that once a month it would be far cheaper than owning a car. I recommend this route to anyone who doesn’t want to buy more car than they need.
My Honda Metropolitan gets one hundred and seventeen MPG.
https://lemmy.world/post/7449419
Look, nothing wrong with an ICE especially starting off. Ease up on use, drive safe and swap when you are able. Don’t take on the worlds problems when you aren’t even secure in yourself yet - leave those sacrifices for us until you can.
This is one of the exceptions I still give, however, look into hybrid options. Newer hybrid can really reduce your emissions (and petrol bill). Even used ones are still pretty decent
I can totally understand that, I think its not a wise option to buy a new ICE car, but a cheap used older car can be a good option until you are able to buy an EV.
I have an ICE car as well, because it just didnt make sense for me to buy an EV a few years ago, I couldnt afford it and there wasnt a suitable one available in Germany.
I do use my bike quite a lot, so I dont think its too bad.
Working on it actually. We got the EV for the wife to replace a dying ICE vehicle, and we live about 20 miles away from her job, with no transit in between, so we were stuck with a car. For me, I won’t be replacing my car and I take the bus to work, but we are getting a train within the year, so I’m looking at possibly an ebike to get to the train station
But it’s not a good solution. In fact it’s not a solution at all. EVs aren’t going to save the environment, they’re going to perpetuate our reliance on personal vehicles.
Oh my god, that’s literally the point of the whole comment. You are offering a perfect solution, while the only alternative you offer is a bad solution. EVs are not perfect. They are an okay solution that is better than remaining on ICE.
That was literally the point. Small towns with populations of <10,000 are not going to build rail in the next decade. I would love for them to, but they’re not going to! So you’re solution for them to get to town where groceries are is to… continue using ICE while sitting on their hands waiting for rail/bus service that is not coming? If that’s your best solution then it’s not a solution.
Oh my go that’s literally the point of my whole comment. You stated that EVs are a good solution. They are not a solution at all.
It’s not a matter of perfect being the enemy of good, it’s a matter of people mistakenly thinking that personal EVs are a solution. They are not a solution at all, they only serve as placebo to make people feel good while while continuing the same habits and relying on the same infrastructure that caused all this in the first place.
That was literally the point. Continuing with the same sprawling, oversized infrastructure built for personal, usually single-occupancy vehicles is not going to solve climate change. We are so far gone the only real, actual, solutions are in fact drastic, society changing measures. So your solution is for us to keep doing the same thing we already are but with 20% less pollution? While the earth is already past the 1.5C global warming mark? If that’s your best solution then it’s not a solution.
EVs are here to save the automobile, not the environment.
We are always going to need some cars, even with the best public transit available.
Builders, for example, need to transport their supplies to construction sites, etc.
I think thats where EVs are going to be a solution, and in the meantime they can be a stopgap to reduce emissions while improving the infrastructure.
Some EVs are pretty good solutions. They’re just not cars. They’re trains and bikes.
Tangently related- im a big fan of the easiest 10%. Effectively, the easiest 10% of change does just as much as the hardest 10%.
Want to use the dryer less? Big stuff on line, little stuff in the dryer. That kind of thing.
Chucking a solar panel on your roof gets you 10% of the way there in a weekend then forget about it for 5 years.
I feel like I read somewhere about someone routing the Arizona air from outside into a dryer intake and running it without the heat and saving a big chunk in electricity too. It’s too bad I live in rain and humidity town.
I mean, you got it use it
Well, not to be that guy but given your specific example of a dryer there is a way you can get over half the way there. Get a heatpump dryer. They use 1/4th the amount of electricity as a standard electric dryer and can literally be plugged into a standard 110v 15A outlet they don’t need the big ass 220v 50a plug. Heavy items like thick beach towels take a bit longer but otherwise they function identically
Different country, all our dryers and appliances run off mains power - 220v 10amp. The big issue is that they can’t be mounted upside down, so we can’t have one.
That’s definitely a unique mounting circumstance, I’m very curious why specifically upside down mounting
Because you put them above the washing machine, and flip them upside down so you can reach the buttons - its a space thing. They even have mounting brackets they come with and the front panel removes so you can turn it upright. I never did though, mine are upside down. But I don’t care.
But yeah, means we can’t use heat pump or condensation dryers unless you have extra space.
Is it like a top load washer or something? I have the melee heat pump dryer and the matching washing machine and they come with a stacking kit. I don’t need to flip it upside down because all the controls are on the front anyway rather than the top
They are quite compact, as I am using them in an RV at the moment so I needed something capable of fitting through a 24 inch door and those were just fucking barely able to do it at 23 and a quarter inch
Top load washer, front load dryer. Its a lack of floor space - just uses the empty space above the washing machine. Out of one, into the next, towels over the shoulder to go on the line.
I never knew you could get stacking kits for heat pump dryers - just told that you can’t flip them so have to be on the floor
I really like this, thanks for sharing. It really does highlight “If we each do just a small change, it will make a noticeable difference”