As the situation in regard to report immigrants escalated, and the army may be used against Americans, do you believe there’s a way back, or is this a one way street to civil war?
Locked for rule 6
I don’t think Americans have the stomach for a civil war, had a Trump been elected in France, they would have crippled the country long ago.
This does not have the seeds of a civil war.
Look back to 1861. The US was split between slave and free states. Both regions had different economic models that were in conflict. The slavers of the south controlled most of the nation’s capital. The slaves were worth more than all the railroads and foundries of the north. They had oligarchic control of the southern states.
When Lincoln was elected, it was the first time that an outspoken abolitionist became president. It was clear, that the demographics of the US were changing in a way that would lose their power and status. So they started a war.
Those weren’t the uneducated racists that you find waving confederate flags today.
The US has seen presidential lawlessness before (notably Andrew “Trail of Tears” Jackson). It also has seen lawlessness by state politicians (eg Harry F. “Massive Resistance” Byrd or Governor Orval “Blood will run in the Streets” Faubus).
The only way I could see a civil war is, if Trump directly threatened the Middle Class and/or the Wealthy Elites.
Eventually, yes. I do think so. Not directly from the current wave of immigration, tariffs, and other batshit crazy Trump stuff though.
The underlying wealth inequality, surveillance state, media exploitation, and corrupt politics does eventually lead to conflict though, IMO. I don’t really say a way around that, unless the fundamental access to services and “represent the people” actually becomes representing the people.
Tired exploited people with few/no recourse will take action eventually.
Would be nice if they could taste a bit of destabilization they impose on so many other countries, for a change.
Two of my state’s democratic politicians were shot this morning, one killed, in a targeted assassination. I think it’s already started.
What sfate?
Minnesota. I feel sick.
Yeah I found all the articles, America is over folks and the protest are about to get ugly.
I think we are still trying peaceful protests and hoping upcoming elections will change things. There is little appetite to escalate to violence yet.
It is inevitable that ice and ice barbie will encounter violent opposition when they raid a wrong address sometime soon. But it will be localized to that location.
Most of the radical groups of self armed wackos are working for ice now and reveling in their racism.
Which upcoming elections would that be? The ones after the guy currently in power who already tried to overthrow the government once and who can’t legally be reelected peacefully steps out?
Sure, wait for that to happen! What could go wrong with giving him years to prepare for exactly that?
There are elections every 6 months or so. All that has to flip are 2 or 3 seats and the entire congress flips.
House of Reps are in 2026, and there are all sorts of state and local things so I assume they are meaning all of that.
If shit starts flipping blue everywhere, the R’s will either back off and play defense or escalate and have a lot more opposition. Hopefully more opposition?
What a useless, whiny attitude to have.
Eh? Do you somehow not know the definition of “whining”?
Idealism is the privilege of elites. Maslow’s pyramid puts the majority of people into survival mode or comfort, and the US has been boiling the frog towards expanding the bottom of the pyramid for a long time. By the time people noticed that an open revolt (even so much as a work strike) would destroy their lives, it was too late. There are so few charismatic, moral and idealistic elites that the government could take care of them as soon as they threatened to become leaders of a real opposition. I don’t believe there would be a civil war, and I don’t believe there is a way back. The US will become a neofedual country, with a lucky few who have the means to move elsewhere. The best case scenario is for the rest of the world to isolate from the US, both economically and militarily.
Economically isolated US is unsustainable which will lead to collapse of the civil society. That’s why Trump wanted so hard to expand into Greenland and make Canada 51st State. Critical resources are missing in the USA to make it totally autonomous.
The US has more natural resources than just about any country on the planet could possibly have. If we can’t achieve autonomy as you’ve defined it then that kind of autonomy is a fictional concept that is out of reach for any modern nation.
then that kind of autonomy is a fictional concept that is out of reach for any modern nation.
True autonomy and isolation IS impossible for modern countries. There isn’t a single country that has access to every single resource needed for modern society, some things will always have to be imported.
A 1700s era society, however, is totally within the realm of possibility. Not much use for neodynium or lithium in the 18th century.
Yes, agreed. I wasn’t sure if we were talking about old fashioned autonomy as you referenced or in the context of the modern world. I don’t think a 1st world nation can be autonomous unless we advance to they point where we can mine most of the metals and minerals we need in space. And even then they might have issues with things like water.
Simple example: water. The USA has a shortage of fresh water and that’s why Trump is arguing the border between the USA and Canada is artificial and he wants to nullify old treaties in order to be able to grab the water from the Great Lakes unilaterally. The point is not about if other countries achieve autonomy, it’s about isolationism which requires autonomy to work and Trump wanting to make the USA isolated like in the good ol’ times when they could ignore the world.
I hope you’re practicing rolling on your belly and wagging your tail for fascists.
I’m helping people resettle to Europe. We currently host a recent college grad until they finalize their job and housing arrangements, and I don’t think they’ll be the last one.
Where would the front(s) be? Seems like in USA CW 1.00, the north/south division made it easy to figure out where the enemy was. Nowadays, the ideological disagreement is much more geographically woven everywhere, with a battlefront possibly existing between every couple of houses in some neighborhoods.
The frontline is everywhere; there be no shelter here.
-Rage Against the Machine, No Shelter
There won’t be any front lines in the usual sense; probably the closest we’d get is a vaguely rural vs. urban divide.
CW 2.0 is gonna look more like the Troubles than anything else.
If The Cranberries songs and music videos I’ve seen are any indication, that sounds like a horrible situation.
I don’t know. People have found ICE facilities and are harassing them there and while they are out on operations. That is great but the Trump administration is likely going to keep over-escalating the response while continuing to ignore laws. He is a “results for my side at any cost” person.
I think that for a civil war, you need an armed force on the protesters’ side, which they don’t seem to have. All radicals who are willing to spill blood are on Trump’s side. I’m not an expert, of course, but if you needed one, you wouldn’t have asked here.
I’m wondering what would or will happen when the Newson, Sanders, AOC, etc start to make messages intended directly for members of the armed forces, saying “this gov is no longer legitimate as it has broken it’s oath to the Constitution. You shall not obey unconstitutional orders”… Particularly if and when some generals follow suit…
Dangerous, but not more so than this fascist government…
I got a Citizen alert that two Democratic lawmakers were shot by a guy posing as ICE this morning so that’s fun
Do you live near where that happened, or in another state? I had to uninstall Citizen because it felt like it was just pushing fear stories directly to my brain, and kept wanting me to pay them for more of that, and a private 911 service? No thanks
I’m not even in the same country anymore lmfao
But iirc you have to pay for Citizen if you want to change your location. Tbh I’ve been close to uninstalling it because the app has gone to shit. I also don’t feel like reading a torrent of slurs in the comments.
The guns exist out there and the protesters exist out there. You’d just need some mobilizing incident to spark them not to leave the guns they already own at home next time.
It seems an easier solved problem than you let on.
All radicals who are willing to spill blood are on Trump’s side.
I’m not so sure on this one.
I’d like to think I’m willing to use the tools at my fingertips to sling hot lead in defense of minorities and prevent a total takeover, however, I recognize that doing so myself is a death sentence.
Taking a stand just makes you a target in a very wide open field. You need more people to take a stand with you to be effective. How many people feel the same as I do? Willing to stand as a group, but not solo?
Organization is important. Organize or be sent to a
concentration camp“prison”. Organize or be arrested for protesting the regime. Organize or die.Organized resistance is much harder to take down. With enough people, you wouldn’t even need to fight. But you should absolutely be prepared to.
The problem you’ll run into is (1) most leftists/liberals don’t own guns, and (2) most leftists/liberals are relatively affluent and will not be directly effected by Trumps policies. There is not a culture of being armed and organized among them.
Every state has a national guard. I’m actually really surprised the California guard followed Trump’s illegal nationalisation when Newsom clearly stated he didn’t authorise it, as is his right.
Yes and CA is one of the most liberal states, if their national guard rolls over for illegal orders then we have no chance with red or purple states.
National guard and California state guard are not the same guard
I would imagine the California State Guard much like anyone else in the military would likely tend to err more on Trump’s side anyway though.
Welp, today i learned, but I was obviously talking about the california national guard
Newsome has the authority to have state police and the CBI to arrest guard members who don’t follow the order to stand down.
He won’t, and I don’t know if I believe the state police would side with a Democrat, but the possibility is there.
Of course, there are MANY things that politicians have had the authority to do to stop things since January, yet they haven’t.
I mean, some of them knew it was coming and lost their phones, but I don’t find it too surprising. Are you really going to risk serious consequences because you got activated when you shouldn’t have been?
Report for duty and let your chain of command fight it out. It’s not up to the guard members to work out the legality of their deployment
Now, if they start telling you to perform violence on civilians, that’s when you can take a stand and refuse orders. And so far, that hasn’t happened
I think they’re doing well. I haven’t seen them raise a finger to the protesters, they just stand there in a line calmly. The protesters are great with them too, they just keep yelling “you should be over here with us”. And with any luck, the courts will give them back to the governor so they can go home before they have to make a hard choice
do you believe there’s a way back
As far as I can see, this government is not well-known for re-evaluating and correcting it’s own course. So the pressure on many groups of people is going to increase further. Ways out are rare.
If a civil war (or any kind of war) is actually offering a solution, that’s quite another question.
Gonna need A LOT more. This already happened in 2022 for BLM. An existential threat needs to exist for a majority of the population before people will be willing to fight. It’s California. Too comfortable.
Breaks community rule #6 about as flagrantly as is possible.
Ye love yer rules, do ye?
Ouch.
I want Lemmy to succeed, do ye not?
Lemmy can succeed while breaking arbitrary
serverCoMmUnItY rules, and if you don’t think this discussion has merit then you only want Lemmy to succeed in your narrow view of what “success” is, I guess.This discussion breaks community rules, not server rules. The breakage is so flagrant that I don’t know why you’re bothering to argue. Just say you don’t want rules.
I think from a historical view - as much as I can muster - the situation will escalate until one side can gain and maintain the upper hand. I dont see any one way streets here. It wont just go back to normal if that makes sense.
