You know, I have a personal theory that this particular law was established as a measure of genital hygiene, since without the foreskin dirt does not accumulate on the glans; but over the years it was distorted until it became a divine mandate that is just for the sake of it.
The vast majority of the Bible was simply guidelines to keep people healthy and happy. All this “the skin of the pig is unclean” stuff? They hadn’t figured out germs yet. No sex until marriage? No contraceptives, so don’t create in cared for children. I won’t waste my time on it but, when examined in context, this is the vast majority, if not the entirety of the bible: lessons on how to be safe and happy relative the time, made digestable and relevant to the common person.
Sucks they had to get there via fear of imaginary, post-life pain, and it sucks twice as hard that they’ve neglected to rationalize that part as the rest of the belief structure has modernized.
I can definitely get behind that. Like, if you read the Bible, especially some particular chapters, there’s a lot of old man yells at clouds vibes.
“I will cuteth off the member of him who pisseth against the wall”
Doesn’t really sound like a god thing. It would be very weird for the ruler and creator of the universe to get really, really fucking mad that any person who pees on a wall anywhere, regardless of the situation, should have their dick cut off.
It kind of sounds more like, you know, one of the leaders of a community is writing down laws and threatening to cut a bunch of boys’ dicks off because they keep peeing on walls and stinking the place up rather than using appropriate facilities.
I wish we had accurate historical records of the time, so I could see if this was ever actually enacted. Like, how much would it suck to be that guy?
Walking home late from the bar, you gotta take a whiz, you piss, the cops catch you, and like three hours later, your penis is lying in the trash.
And, I mean, talk about disproportionate response, like, did the concept of community service not exist? Like, what the fuck?
Then there was one phrase about, do not go and shave the sides of your beard, something something yada yada, and it reads like a protest against the kids and their fashion.
There’s lots of stuff where if you have the capacity to take the one mental step to say that every single word in the book may not have been written by God himself, but instead the texts chosen to be in the bible contain a historic medium of communicating laws, rules, and regulations that made sense at the time, inspired by God and definitely containing some legitimate things that were directly written by the Holy Spirit, but also invariably containing some information that was derived from that original mandate.
I mean, even the whole thing about the Sabbath, it was more a nicety to say, even God rested, you should rest too. You should have at least one day off a week where you’re not beholden to labor for somebody else, where you can enjoy life.
I highly doubt that God is throwing people into hell for working on the Sabbath. I get that it’s special to God because he rested for a day, which is something he had otherwise not done throughout existence. But at the same time, why torment someone forever for just working one extra day out of our comparatively very short lives?
I don’t know. I can rant forever. I’m sorry, I’ll stop here, but yeah.
Cross-amputation is still a thing under Sharia Law. I wouldn’t be surprised if people ever, or even still do, get their dicks cut off for pissing on a wall. John Wayne Bobbit had his cut off by his wife, but that was over marital rape.
I’m guessing this is the verse you are referencing?
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
That’s not a commandment from God saying that he’ll cut peoples dicks off if they piss against the wall, that’s part of a curse where God is saying that he’s going to destroy Jeroboam’s family line. Its a curse on a specific guy in history.
One of my favorite examples of this: Leviticus 11:13-19
“These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat.”
Most of these are either scavengers, or eat rodents which carry diseases that are awful to humans. The societies that ate them didn’t tend to last long.
The best way to test the resolve of your fellow cultists is by making them commit to very rigorous rules that affect their life significantly.
I mean if you can get them to cut of a piece of their reproductive organs, you have insanely loyal followers. Also resisting something to eat that is very tasty, of it said ‘don’t eat shit’ it’s not a very hard rule to follow.
Somehow this works like a drug for some people. There a reason that many rehabs are ran by religious fellows.
Religions prey on the weak, hence the rehabs and homeless shelters. It’s not charity it’s recruitment
I see nothing here that contradicts my point.
So i agree
That’s Moses, right?
Guy was just pissed off that nobody had gotten around to inventing Spaghetti-Os and figured this would be close enough.
Wrong dude. That was Abraham in Genesis.
If Jesus is God and God told Abraham then i guess it’s technically the right dude.
only jesus said there is a new covenant with him, which nearly all denominations interpret to mean the rite of circumcision is a thing of the past
… Unless you’re in Protestant dominated USAmerica, where male genital mutilation remains a widespread, common practice.
Roughly 80% of American boys/men are circumcized, almost all at birth.
I can provide either statistics or pics as proof, your choice.
EDIT: There’s also a whole history of basically junk/fraudulent science in the US being used as a validation of this practice, much of which basically claims that having your whole hood intact makes you more vulnerable to skin infections and STDs.
This is false, but Americans are quite good at doing motivated reasoning and convincing themselves it is objective critical analysis.
But that’s not religious. It’s an american thing.
It is an American thing that arose from, and persists because of how Americans ‘do’ Christianity.
As I said in another post, start with Max Weber, and then explore more of the history of how Christianity and Christian Denominations, cults, sects, revival movements, etc, have shaped the country as a whole, in ways that are distinct from how other kinds of Christianity have shaped other countries in the last 300 or so years.
Like… the whole reason we have the First Amendment, the freedom of religion part… was mainly to make it so that none of the varying Christian Denominations would be able to use the government to censor or outright oppress or murder each other.
Read the journals of the founding fathers, federalist papers, etc, if you doubt that. See how most of them were Deists, who… just believed in a big creator God, but basically no theology of any particular Christian branch… the neutral middle ground.
America was largely initially founded by populations of varying kinds of extreme Christian Sects fleeing persecution in Europe… and a lot of our early history is… those sects persecuting and mistreating, or at best, barely tolerating and competetively trying to proselytize, other sects that just over here now, on a different continent… as well as all the indigenous populations… and the imported slaves.
Good vid!
None of that is for (directly) religious reasons though; Americans circumcise their sons because a cereal company founder thought it would prevent masturbation, and Americans are removed apparently
… It is an unchallenged remnant of many things, a large chunk of those things having puritanical religious origins.
And almost all those religions happen to be Jesus-centric.
Kellogg was just a more recent large scale eh… reinforcment of the norm. He was inspired by his particular Christian views… 7th Day Adventist.
Like, yes, its not as direct as many modern preachers constantly doing sermons about the virtuosity of circumcision… but even still, I can easily say that the reason the practice is unchallenged is that American Protestant Christians of many, many different Denominations… well they strongly promote traditionalism for the sake of tradition, not questioning authority figures, actively rejecting modern science and medicine.
Like uh… Max Weber’s christian protestant work ethic explanation of the peculiarities of American culture in regards to attitudes toward work and politics and many other cultural features… isn’t 100% perfect… but it is a very good starting point to understand why American Protestantism is sociologically distinct to other societies.
Lol I guess one of the involved instances censors that word.
Which has fuck-all to do with Jesus, the meme is still incorrect
Pentecostal holiness denominations are both small and overrepresented in policy making
edit: oh yeah and they teach the opposite of what jesus did
? I agree with you. Has nothing to do with Jesus, the meme is wrong
no yeah for sure. i’m just saying that the subset of people who are gungho about the importance of circumcision because of their love for jesus are people you’re unlikely to ever encounter, but do have every conservative politician’s ear
no i know. i’m part of that statistic. my parents weren’t consulted ahead of time. it was simply done “for health reasons”
… are you saying you don’t want pics… =[
/s /s /s lol
I edited in a bit more info… yet another wonderful amazing lie I had to figure out entirely on my own that my fundie parents told me with utter confidence.
i saw the edit
Tell that to the doctors recommending it then, not to us. As far as I’m concerned this obsession over it is a mental disease and not one I’m pleased to see making the jump from Reddit.
I’m circumcised, and I don’t give a shit, and I never will, and it’s not the same thing as FGM at all.
Discussing it isn’t an obsession, an obsession would be making your whole personality about it, or basically having that be a primary hobby or something.
You are doing a less extreme version of the thing that politcal news pundits do against protests:
Protesting as a concept is fine, but it turns out any protest with views I disagree with? Well they’re protesting wrong.
If you are reading this as an obsession, I dunno what to tell you, check my comment history and you’ll see this is the first thread I’ve ever mentioned it in, and my older, nearly year old account? Don’t think I ever mentioned it.
Finally: Yes, female genital mutilation is very often much, much worse, in that it usually entails total removal of the clitoris, which is… basically fundamental to the ability of a woman to experience pleasure and orgasm.
But that doesn’t mean male genital mutilation is not also bad. The male hood also generally has a much higher concentration of nerve endings than… basically everywhere other than the head.
And both of these practices fundamentally remove bodily autonomy from a baby/child, and are culturally/religiously done for reasons that ultimately or directly arise from a very paternalistic and authoritarian approach to children as property of parents, and intending to diminish and control their sexual characteristics without consent.
… But if you don’t wanna have this discussion, feel free to block me, or just… not discuss… this…?
I will block you because this is tedious, but know that I will always discuss this and never let it go uncommented on because it’s unhinged. While you supposedly don’t make this your entire personality there were those on Reddit who definitely did, and you smell just like them. I will never stop speaking out that this whole thing is a bullshit non issue.
Glad you left your reddit trauma at the door to lemmy and certainly aren’t making any personal judgements based entirely on vibes rofl.
I will never stop speaking out that this whole thing is a bullshit non issue.
Not obsessive in any way at all, nope, that’s me apparently.
Hahahahaha
Does lemmy have a function to block words? if you can’t stop yourself from discussing it when you see the word, it might benefit you to not see it for a while. i’ve been there.
Why would you come to a thread about circumcision, read the comments about circumcision, and leave a comment about being fed up of circumcision discussions if you were tired of talking about circumcision? And then block a guy who replies to your comment in a reasonable and ration manner because he reminds you of someone on a different website.
If anyone’s “unhinged” here it’s the guy who doesn’t just move on to the next thread.
I will always discuss this and never let it go uncommented on
I dunno, sounds like the one who’s made it their whole personality might not be spectral here.
Jesus hadn’t been created yet. God is eternal, but Jesus was God made mortal.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made."
is generally interpreted to mean that Jesus was there from the beginning. Or, to quote the Nicene Creed,
begotten and not made, consubstantial with the Father
Jesus’ deity is pretty famously rejected by the Jewish faith.
Didn’t Jesus deny being god though, the son of god and god are not the same entity, it’s like saying I’m my mother because I was born out of her, but two different entities
This is technical correct and I love it.
Yes, this dude got his dick cut off as well.
Not as readily recognizable; but on the other hand, if you recognize Jesus then you already know this is incorrect.
Where’s that painting of Moses with the tablets? That’s probably better
I got the meme but this is Jesus. He was himself circuncised since he was jewish. It was alredy a thing before him. oh, and christians don’t do that
Actually there was a huge debate among early Christians whether circumcision was still required because Jesus never spoke on the issue (or if he did, there was no verifiable record of it).
To crudely summarize:
The earliest Christians were primarily Jews, so they were already circumcized as required by Judaism so it was a non-issue. However unlike Judaism where you’re almost always born into the religion, Christianity actively encourages adult conversion, so as more non-Jews (e.g. Greeks) began to identify as Christians, the circumcision issue became a conundrum. Some felt Christianity was a branch of Judaism and as such Jewish practices like circumcision were still required, whereas others objected because they saw Christianity as a new approach to Judaism, or even as a separate religion altogether (circumcision specifically was hotly debated due to such issues as adult circumcision being more, shall we say, unappealing than infant circumcision, plus getting circumcized would “out” non-Jews in nude spaces like bath houses, which was at best awkward and at worst deadly).
The earliest followers of Jesus thought Jesus was going to return in their lifetimes, so these types of issues were not discussed (or at least not resolved) by the original founders and proselytizers (researchers have determined the Gospels weren’t even composed until well after everyone involved was dead), but as generations passed it became clear that the Second Coming actually may not happen anytime soon, so practical issues of “how to establish a new religion (is it even a new religion or just a Jewish sect???)” turned into gigantic internal debates for the community. That’s what much of the New Testament is: letters back and forth trying to interpret the words of Jesus to resolve doctrinal conflict. In other words, the New Testament is basically four different versions of the story of Jesus (Mark, Matthew and Luke which were based on Mark and a lost “Gospel X”, and John), followed by a curated back-and-forth commentary section debating issues of the day such as circumcision and women’s role in the church, and controversially capped off by the (theorized) hallucinations of a hermit tripping balls off donated moldy bread.
The history of the New Testament (how it was written and later compiled, early texts that were lost or discarded, and all the doctrinal conflicts that boiled over into variously incidents of geopolitical chaos) is fascinating and seriously worth exploring.
That’s fascinating. Can you recommend any books on the subject? The easier to read the better!
I don’t know if I’d call it “easy” reading, but this is a well-regarded college textbook that’s popular in “Christianity 101” religion classes (so at least it’s entry-level and doesn’t assume prior knowledge on the topic):
For something much lighter, Extra Credits did a video series on early Christian schisms that mentions the circumcision debate:
I’m far from a religious scholar (just someone who enjoys history from time to time), so I’d be curious if other folks have additional recommendations.
Thanks :) I found a free PDF copy on anna’s archive
Christianity actively encourages adult conversion
That’s why 99% of christians were baptized before they learned to shit and piss properly.
I can’t tell if you’re being humorous here, but historically babies were baptized shortly after birth out of fear that anyone who died without being baptized would be unable to get into heaven.
In the middle ages* in Europe, baptism was usually scheduled a few days after birth, and often the historical record includes baptism dates and death dates for individuals, so historians estimate birth dates to be a few days prior to the baptism date. Babies that died pre-baptism were thought to go to purgatory instead of heaven, and considering the high infant mortality rate pre-modern medicine, there was a bit of a rush to get your offspring baptized pronto to save their itty bitty souls. Generally this is no longer believed, at least not by most mainstream Protestant sects, and many Christians nowadays opt to wait until their children are old enough to “appreciate” the event more.
*Not sure exactly when, and maybe this was mostly a Catholic thing? Again, this is not my area of expertise.
Catholics still do infant baptism, as do several Protestant groups.
I think adult baptism popped up in a few heresies/other groups - like maybe the Cathars did it and iirc a few early heresies - but really became a thing post Protestant reformation with groups like the Anabaptists. (Like, Baptists are called such because they specifically reject infant baptism.)
“And turn some of them into facial cream in about two thousand years. Have celebrities rave about it in an extremely odd way for a few weeks on TV, then mysteriously let it be broadly forgotten.”
deleted by creator
Jesus was in fact the one to say “yeah all this old rules don’t matter, just focus on these two: don’t be a dick and don’t be a fucking dick, god damn”
And that is why they crucified him, The Old Testament Repeatedly says “Be a dick against gays, infidels and non-virgin women who are not your wife. And whoever comes to say otherwise, be the most absolute dick against him”.
But even the new testament says to fear god, why would a all loving god want us to fear it? The abrahamic god is not all loving at all
Aleluya
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17
Matthew, particularly, was so obsessed with this idea that he even made up new scriptures that didn’t exist and said Jesus fulfilled them.
The law of the prophets was a costly covenant between old-testament god and humanity. Or, you know, whatever subgroup was in charge of translations at the time.
The “fulfillment” mentioned is a single lump sum of holy lamb blood in place of the never-actually-complete exchange of not wearing blended fabrics, not getting tattoos, and sacrificing your firstborn on a rock in the mountains. And slaughtering prisoners of war who you tricked into getting circumcised as a condition of their surrender so that they would be vulnerable.
How tf did this even start? Some guy was like, “you know the tip of the dick? Cut it off your children” and they just went along with it
Circumcision of children should be highly illegal. Any health practitioner doing the procedure should be criminally liable for assault and malpractice.
I would say that any… if the people live in a group or a society that is religion-based, and that religion requires it, then I am not against infant circumcision.
Basically, if you were born to Jewish parents living in Israel or Palestine or born to Muslim parents living in a Muslim-run country, then yes, participate in the culture that you were born in.
But, like in America, where every single person decides their own faith for themselves and only the most culty stay in this same religion that their parents were in, infant bodily autonomy outside of life-saving procedures should be the rule.
It seems to happen less often in Europe, but wouldn’t hurt to add that as a rule there, too.
At least wait until the kid is 13 years old as a minimum.
I think religiously mandated circumcision is as dumb as the next guy does but c’mon now… there are legitimate reasons to do it and getting it done does not have that terrible health outcomes for the kid compared to FGM. I think society as a whole should start to think of it as a bygone practice, but putting doctors on pikes over it is extreme.
Even with phimosis, circumcision is not needed in most cases. You can make the foreskin bigger and more flexible with stretching over time. Still, people with phimosis get circumcised without ever even hearing of an alternative option. Shit sucks
agreed. not needed in most cases but absolutely needed in some. exactly what I meant in my original comment
They are clearly not talking about the legitimate, medically necessary cases
not really… they said any. they didn’t give any indication they might have an exception to that. sounds like they’re talking about a blanket ban.
I’ve never heard of any circumcision opponent being against medically neccesary procedures. Only supporters using it as a bad faith argument
The rational behind it is flimsy to begin with. Stopping bacterial buildup? Sure. Then you have the whole “circumcision as a remedy for masturbation” … which was actually a movement.
nah my nephew had to get one because his foreskin wouldn’t grow. it literally was cutting off blood flow to his pecker, so they give him a circumcision. sucks but kinda had to happen.
It’s sexual assault
God hates the tips of little baby dicks
Don’t eat pork, don’t eat shell fish, don’t work on Sundays (or Saturdays depending on who you talk to), no sex before marriage, don’t masturbate … but you can bend the rules and get close to doing those things and even get away with breaking the rule because God is an idiot that can easily be outwitted or deceived with human logic.
And this is just a small list of rules and regulations … there’s a whole list of things that are not allowed in the bible but Christian leaders have made workarounds on everything because they are smarter than God.
God is not an idiot, your leader are.
Rabbits, beavers, and hippos are fish, you see.
Jesus basically came in to say: just follow the commandments, love one another, love your enemy as yourself, don’t be greedy and selfish, and you guys don’t have to keep doing those self-imposed rules the Israelites made themselves do like don’t eat pork or shell fish, etc.
Israelites believed that they were supposed to be purists about everything they do to some degree and saw being a purist as being holy; such as never mixing two different kinds of fabric together or don’t raise your goats with your sheep. Jesus said you don’t need to be a purist about all this unimportant stuff, but be good people.
My favorite one is do not boil a calf in its mother’s milk, which has been interpreted to mean no cheese or butter on beef.
Which means that cooking and eating a bacon cheeseburger yourself after sundown *on a friday while wearing cotton underwear and polyester pants is 4 sins, 3 of which are burger
Thou shall try really really really hard not to kill anyone, unless they pray to a different invisible made up man in the sky to the one you do.
pro tip: you can’t stutter if you never existed.
you also can’t loose yor peen tip or your protip.
