Hi all! This is an alt for anonymity. Please be gentle, this is a hard topic for me to discuss.
I’m a progressive United States citizen who is looking to get out. I’m of Italian descent so I’m working on getting Italian citizenship through jure sanguinis, but it’s going to take some time, if it works at all (gotta substantiate some relations) and won’t extend to my husband until he completes a citizenship test, which he can do after living in Italy for two years.
Here’s my big question: is moving to Italy even a good idea?
I know there’s a significant element of fascism there, but that seems to be the case to varying extents throughout Europe. I’ve visited a few times as a tourist and everyone was very kind. I also have a US cousin that lives there as a permanent resident near Napoli and she is very encouraging, saying people will be welcoming. We don’t want much, just to make a living and maybe have a kid.
I wouldn’t want to live near Napoli, or anywhere in the south. Italy is basically 2 countries. The rich north and the extremily poor south. It’s a nice country but also has it’s own issues. I love to go on holiday there, don’t know if I would want to live there. But I have the luxury of living in The Netherlands, I guess anything is better than the US right now. Knowing the language helps a lot, if you do not speak it then for sure learn Italian, even if it’s just the basics. Americans don’t have a great status as expats or tourists, anywhere really, adjusting to the customs and loosing the americanism is recommended.
Might I ask about your concerns about Napoli? Are they more than crime?
Are there any areas you’d recommend? We’re looking for more community/family engagement and a slower lifestyle, if it helps.
I was just a tourist, so take that into account. But in Napoli I felt fine on the main shopping streets, but when I would take a side road I felt very unsafe and watched. It’s clear you don’t belong there and you feel a target on your back, or at least that was my experience. Tourist heavy areas are better, but there are more pickpockets there too. I felt like I constantly had to look over my shoulder and shouldn’t divert too far from the busy roads.
It’s really bad how the country is so divided. It would be better for everyone if this would change. But there’s a lot of crime in the south, so I wouldn’t want to live there.
I was planning on leaving if the orange got reelected. I only didn’t because in the years between when I made that decision (2021) and now, I found myself in a relationship cohabitating with my partner. She’s here as a refugee and can’t leave or that gets rescinded. It took some serious soul searching to decide to retract my longstanding plan to escape this hellish fascist-speedrun. I was even doing phone interviews. If you think you could be happy, do it.
politically speaking i think that makes no sense. i mean, you’re leaving because of the far right in power in the u.s., but then again italy is being governed by the far right. leaving your country, and therefore much of what you know, your support network, for political reasons only makes sense if there’s a well funded fear for your life because of your political activities. in that case i (as a communist) would probably go to a country with bland politics (where the far right would have no risk of reaching power for at least 10 years or so), or a straight up communist country, even if not of the same persuation.
there are other things that might make italy more attractive, such as having public healthcare, decent education, some social security coverage (subpar as compared to much of the rest of western europe, i think), cheap groceries. however, on the other side, housing and utilities are expensive. it will be better if you have a degree or some sort of qualification in high demand, it will be easier for you to get a job. however, when you’re an immigrant, locals will probably give preference to other locals, at least because it will be easier to communicate with.
Yes but isn’t Italy part of the EU? Once he’s in, it is easier to move to a different more liberal country member of the Union.
Learn the language as soon as possible, at least basic level. Bureaucracy is going to be hell, there’s no nicer way to put it. But I think you’ll enjoy living in Italy. You are not happy where you are now, so it’s great you’re doing something about it. Best of luck!
Italy has just changed it’s rules on citizenship. You now need to prove you had an Italian parent or grandparent in order to be eligible. Before, there was no generational cut off.
I literally just read about this. There goes that opportunity. Ugh.
Depends on how committed you are to the change.
Here’s the Reddit sub on the issue of citizenship by ancestry: https://www.reddit.com/r/juresanguinis/
Thanks for the link. I don’t understand your comment, though.
You would have to move to Italy and live there for a certain number of years. For you it is probably 10 years continuous residency although as your ancestor was Italian it might be much shorter. To go and live there you would need a visa - a work visa or maybe something like an elective visa (private income so you’re not a burden on the sate), or an investor visa (buying residency).
If you were to have a child while there I don’t know what that would mean. It probably means they would be eligible and you would have the right to stay and look after them. But you would need to carefully assess what that would mean for the child’s statehood and identity.
Thanks for the summary, much appreciated.
Moving to another country, especially when the native language is not English, that’s a massive challenge. It’s important that you’re going there for a positive reason. Otherwise you could have chosen anywhere, right? So your motivation to be a community member there would be low. So don’t just run away from Musk. Find other goals and reasons to aim for Italy.
Also, every country and city has some assholes loving in it. Not everyone is very kind. That’s life.
Trump isn’t fascism, it’s authoritarian sure but he’s in it for his own criminal financial gain. For his self enrichment he mobilises the fascist tools of nationalism and division but it isn’t the rigorous ideology of state and society of fascism that he promotes: It’s more of a kleptocratic autocracy. Trump will destabilize the U.S. economy for his own profit, likely shifting reserves into $Trump crypto while China and Russia pick up the pieces. So moving to Italy is an excellent idea. It’s beautiful, the weather’s good, you might well have problems finding well paid work but you’ll eat well - what more could you want!
Be careful. If you move to Italy, you might start hating people over how they eat food(like eating spaghetti with bread)
Hah, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve been on the “double carbs bad” train for awhile, but I don’t care when other people do it.
I’m not too fond of the plenty Americans having the same idea.
Stay there.Unless you’re a directly targeted demographic, leaving the US is the coward’s way out. You abandon everyone who doesn’t have the means to flee. Stay and fight for something. Running away from problems doesn’t solve them, it just cedes power to the problem.
TIL: disinformation is a synonym for “presumptuous asshole”. Who knew?
TIL a ham sandwich is a synonym for cowardly pig. But we both knew that already.
LOL
You don’t know anything about this person or their personal circumstances. The only thing I know about you, based on these two comments, is you’re a divisive moron.
Dogmatic idiots like you made your country the shit hole it is today. Fuck off, blue MAGA.
I qualified my first comment based on that exact criticism. Now what I know about you is that you jump into a conversation without availing yourself of what’s been said.
Run away if you want. By all means save yourself. It doesn’t change the fact that the act is directly harmful to solving the problems you’re running from, and you need to be honest with yourself about that. Cowards like you are why this country is where it is today.
You emigrate to Italy and then you’ll be an immigrant from the US. One’s a verb, the other a noun.
Once you have Italian citizenship you’ll be able to live an work anywhere in the Schengen region. So a lot more options once you’re in.
That’s not the difference. Both words have noun and verb forms.
Immigrate = to move to a place
Emigrate = to move from a place
Immigrant = a person who moved to a place
Emigrant = a person who moved from a place
So they would be emigrating from the US and immigrating to Italy. They would be a US emigrant and an Italian immigrant.
In the future, consider ensuring you actually know what you’re talking about before attempting pedantic corrections.
As I haven’t seen this mentioned so far: Be sure that you both learn the language.
Seen a lot of posts in other immigration heavy subs/communities where people move to europe and don’t make any effort on learning the local language, and then are surprised/depressed that they can’t find any friends or jobs
100%. We’re taking classes and using Babbel already, just in preparation. I doubt we’ll be fluent by the time we’d move, but we’ll be functional. We just don’t want to be more entitled Americans who expect everyone to speak English. We want to do the work.
I have an Italian friend, so tried to learn Italian. I did French at school (30 years ago), so how hard can it be, right?
Real fucking hard.
WHY DO SO MANY THINGS HAVE GENDERS?! WHY IS AN APPLE TREE HE, BUT AN APPLE IS SHE?! (or is it the other way around?)
I’m English, so I guess I’ll just carry on the grand tradition of talking louder and using hand gestures.
fun fact! In french, the slang word for penis (bite) is feminine, so it’s la bite.
Makes total sense
WHY IS AN APPLE TREE HE, BUT AN APPLE IS SHE?!
Just wait until you learn about eggs, ears or fingers
Most Italians don’t speak correct Italian. As long as you make yourself understood, in day-to-day life it doesn’t matter.
Of course work may require you to perfect your language skills for certain roles.
Bapidi booopi?
I agree only like 20% with this. I’m an European who migrated for studies and work to 5 other European countries. It does help to learn the language but if you go to a big city or a university town, most people will speak English and you only need to learn the coffee place/restaurant/supermarket basics. It’s still a big decision and op shouldn’t do it on a whim
Hello, Italian here.
So I’ve been a traveller most of my life, for work, and when I was younger, like so many Italians, I dreamed of emigrating to so many different places; life had other plans, and I stayied. Luckily I was able to make a career in a profitable field, and over time I came to appreciate my own country, always looking forward to coming back home.
There’s much to be said for Italy’s cultural heritage and natural beauty, and anywhere you may be in our country, a weekend getaway to visit a beatiful city, historical sites, beach or mountainside is always fairly accessible.While the rightward move is worrisome, we also have the factor that governments in Italy rarely last to the end of their mandate (we’ve been getting better on that), let alone get elected more than once. Italy was never rid of fascism, in part because that wasn’t in the US’ interest, but also always had one of the strongest communist factions in Europe, so who knows.
What I’ve got to warn you about is economic struggles: Italy has among the lowest wages in developed Europe, for most of us it is impossible to afford an abode alone, most people wait until they’re married because it takes two working people to be able to pay for a single apartment or house (houses for most people are only affordable way outside of cities) and where possible we get mortgages, because rents are impossible; all of our lives are coloured by monetary constraints: we drive small cars because they’re cheaper to own and operate, we mostly hang clothes because driers are another appliance you have to buy and are expensive to run, we rely on a deteriorating public healthcare system because private healthcare is, while usually accessible, an expense we cannot afford.
That said, if you can manage to find good paying jobs, in my opinion this is a good place to live. Of course you need to speak Italian, there’s very low knowledge of English here.
Best work chances are in the North, unfortunately it’s also the least appealing when it comes to natural surroundings, fog, humid heat and bad weather are typical unless you go WAY north to the Alps. If you really feel the need to be in a left-leaning environment, Emilia Romagna is the “red” land of Italy, since the country’s creation has always been governed by left wing parties, and as such has among the best public infrastructure.Let me know if you need to know anything more.
Thank you so much for a very helpful and detailed response. We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities. I’m good at learning languages and my husband is bilingual and excellent with accents, so we will work at being fluent in the language of wherever we settle.
In your opinion, can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community or will we always be “that (hopefully) nice American couple”. I worry because we’re missing all the cultural touchstones gained from growing up in Italy. We’ve been advised to be persistently nice with neighbors and that bigger cities will have English speaking immigrants we can meet up with, but we really want to integrate, acknowledging it’ll take time and effort. Do you think that is possible?
We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this? Remote work in Italy is not uncommon but not super common either, and usually it’s not full remote. Be aware that many areas of Italy have poor connection speeds.
can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community
I don’t see why not. Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as! Of course making new friends as adults always presents challenges, anywhere, but Italians are known to be friendly and outgoing.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this?
Yeah, we already work remotely. My employer is fine with my working anywhere in the world. My husband’s employer isn’t, but he’s working on new employment. We can survive on my income alone.
Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as!
Thanks, that’s the plan! We’re both friendly and outgoing, I think more than most Americans, so I’m hoping that helps.
Thanks again for the info and your encouragement. We experienced a lot of xenophobia when we previously asked on Reddit, so this has been really refreshing.
If you need anything else let me know! Godspeed.
Italy was never rid of fascism, in part because that wasn’t in the US’ interest, but also always had one of the strongest communist factions in Europe, so who knows.
Ok! Better be fascist then communist, seems it is not equal (for me), but Italian fascist new better…
It’s not really clear what you’re trying to communicate
I mean you don’t have to live in Italy after getting your citizenship they are an EU country with freedom of moment.
True, but my husband does for two years prior to getting his citizenship.
Not really. Being married to an EU/EEA citizen he’ll get a residence in any of the other ones. But having a full passport will cut down on paperwork in the long term.
Also, it’s nice here in Italy. Come over! The wife and I have been here for 7 years and once the bureaucracy is dealt with it’s (mostly) quite pleasant.
That’s great! We’re trying to be forward thinking with his citizenship. I want to be sure he’s okay if I were to suddenly die or something.
Any recommendations on locations? We’re thoroughly overwhelmed figuring this all out.
Not sure that’s true. As an EU citizen, you can pretty much live anywhere in Europe. Then your husband can apply for spouse visa through you in that country. There are usually a couple of avenues available.
Edit: here’s usually the requirements for staying beyond 3 months as an EU citizen in another country. Then once you get residence, you can apply for residence for your spouse.
For Stays Beyond 3 Months You must meet one of these conditions:
- Be employed or self-employed
- Have sufficient resources and health insurance to support yourself without becoming a burden on the social assistance system
- Be studying with comprehensive health insurance and sufficient resources
- Be a family member of an EU citizen who meets any of the above conditions
Ah yeah that will be the wrinkle
Progressive here too. We’re staying on the blue coast.
Take a trip to Italy, as long as you can, and do a ton of research before you commit. That is a very large commitment, and you should have the language down pat, enough savings for a year, and a job lined up, or very strong prospects. If you are missing any of these things, I wouldn’t recommend going.
For me personally, I wouldn’t move unless there was significant danger. The grass is always greener. There will always be benefits and tradeoffs. I couldn’t see my family moving to Italy, even if we were straight. Their slide is not too far off from our own.
US ex pat here:
I agree with a big decision, but I strongly disagree with needing the language down pat before you go. You should know some for sure, and mostly have a willingness to learn it. You’re going to learn so much faster while there than you will studying in the US.
Just need enough language to get by at first
anywhere outside Milan you won’t be able to rely on English for anything. Bureaucracy and services are going to be a nightmare without conversational Italian.
Totally. But “down pat” and conversational are a bit different.
