seen this post elsewhere? click for explanation
This post got banned from [email protected] for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕
I mean this meme with full respect and love to my fellow community members and I was proud of the discussion and support it was creating.
EDIT: POST RESTORED YAY. (Thank you to the mods it turned out to be a misunderstanding.)
Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
It’s not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis.
For Fucks Sake
Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.
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Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time. It’s time for men like you to realise that sometimes yeah you should shut up and yeah your opinion is less important than the lived experience of women when it comes down to sexism and SA. Educate yourself please before you embarrass yourself even more.
Invisible women is a great book to start. Very easy to read and full of interesting statistics.
Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time.
Yikes.
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Oh so it’s fine when it happens the other way, gotta perpetuate the anger somehow!
Maybe everyone should be allowed a voice and nobody should be told to shut up?
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Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time.
I think right about now would be a good time to check your privilege. People overall are told that all the time, yet somehow women still by and large have shoulders to cry on, places to complain where they’re heard. Wait, no, crying on shoulders, complaining, again, that would be pathetic for men never mind.
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I mean yes I could have used the term “toxic masculinity” but men not steeped deeply in feminist theory tend to react badly to it, and self-identified feminists (usually also not quite firm in theory) getting called out for engaging in it tend to react even worse. And I already used quite a lot of budget on the privilege check, so, yeah, better avoid that one.
Oh your edit.
Have you ever asked yourself why people only bring up male victims when we are talking about female victims?
Because the overall narrative is women are weak and in need of protection while men are not, and if they are, it’s because they are a) toxic male view losers b) toxic female view in some way inherently broken because how can you fail as a man in a world made for men.
Looking at the difference between the toxic perspectives: At least the male one doesn’t lend itself to denying the very existence of men with issues. On the toxic female side you get things like radfems shutting down domestic violence centres for men as it clashes with their idea that men are inherently never victims. Reality, it seems, has a compassionate bias so it has to be denied.
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sdfsaf
(btw did you see my edit to your edit)
Advocating for women generally is advocacy for men as well.
In theory, yes. In practice you get self-avowed feminists reinforcing the patriarchy, hence why I did the privilege checking.
Facts don’t care about your feelings bro
- 91% of SA victims are women, 99% of perpetrators are men;
- women in the EU work 70 hours per week on average vs men who work 63 hour per week (this includes paid and unpaid work, women do about 3 times as much unpaid work as men)
- number of women in the US who face workplace discrimination is 3 times higher than men
- women politicians in the US face 3.4 times as much threats and harassment than men
- car seats are only tested on male dummies resulting in women being 73% more likely to get seriously injured by a car crash
- most medicines are only tested on male animals and or humans, resulting in lower efficacy among women and causing medicines that would be beneficial to women to go undiscovered
Once again I recommend reading the book invisible women for more interesting statistics, and an analysis on gender specific data. It turns out that gender specific data is very hard to come by, making a lot of potential other gender gaps undiscovered. Women are much more likely than men to be victims of gender specific data gaps because women were not allowed to work for a long time and women still make up only a small fraction of executives making many women specific problems to stay undiscovered.
I now could start a big list starting with men being four times more likely to commit suicide than women. But I won’t, because I assume you’re aware of all those gendered inequalities affecting men just as I was aware of every single one of the bullet points you mentioned.
Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
- Hillary Clinton, 1998
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sdfsaf
We weren’t talking about workplace discrimination, either. Or car seats. Or medicine. Or work hours. Those are real issues brought up in addition which I readily acknowledged and made no attempt at dismissing, nor did I spent more breath on a single male issue than any single one of the female issues got.
We were talking about people’s experiences and pain getting silenced, and how none of it should get ignored. I suggest making that “if” into a “when” and lead by example.
It’s time for men like you to realise that
Why are you talking to a 15 year old like that?
It’s not a competition. Let’s all be better
Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
I am listening to and validating your stories. I don’t appreciate the other commenters jumping down your throat in this context.
There are a lot of emotions running high on all sides. What is needed is a deep breath and open mindedness but that is hard under a post that is already a reaction to a reaction.
If you haven’t already, check out [email protected], seen some positive stuff over there and I think you could find mutual value :)
I literally just want to say thank you. I’ve been trying to get across something similar, and I’m sure we’d disagree on a few issues. But your compassion and understanding of all points of view is genuinely inspiring
💖
+55 -2
Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
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SMH
It was a divisive comment that was certainly fueled by already-high emotions, the mods may have just done what was necessary to keep toxicity and flaming at bay.
I ask you to please not add fuel to the fire—nobody gains anything from the doubling down on hurt feelings. Listen to each other instead of trying to one-up.
I know, the only winning move is not to play. And the mods had limited options
Shoutout to the mods for putting up with the garbage behavior my post shuffled up. 🙏
And thank you friend for doing your part not to get me banned again :)
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You’re forgetting the “male” part of oligarchs.
Is it forgetting or, looking at the percentages, considering it irrelevant to the overall problems the system has?
How large a percentage of men are oligarchs, and how large a percentage of oligarchs are women? Which one is, in <randomliberalcounttry>, the larger number? Would oligarchy be any better if all oligarchs were women? Now as an anarchist I might be biassed here but given that oligarchy is a system of rule I’d say it’s the actual problem, not the gender distribution that’s a mere nuance. I don’t care whether we’re all ruled by left-handed people, or ones with heterochromatic eyes, their geno- or phenotype doesn’t matter what matters is that they are in power. For more education, consult your friendly neighbourhood anarcho-feminist.
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Oh not just “at this point” I’ve been busy figuring out what sticks with people vs. what doesn’t for at least two decades now. Points that, when prodded, don’t cause resistance, where some leverage can be applied that then may or may not avalanche into reevaluation of other topics which would be foolhardy to address directly. Dancing around the neuroses of the collective to enact my grand political vision of *checks notes* universal psychological health.
That all said yes of course we also have issues with gender roles. It’s just that in terms of who sits at the big power levers that’s not terribly relevant any more, it’s not 1850 any more the dam has long since been breached and as women can inherit fortunes nowadays the gender distribution of oligarchs is bound to level out soon enough.
None of that has anything to do with the conversation. You’re only justifying the fact that you’re agreeing that men don’t get to have problems and should just shut up
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sdfsaf
It’s not personal. You aren’t just a man, right?
absolutely agree ❤️
which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all
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… no. thats what nuance is. i agree both with the text of my meme and with this commenter. holding two truths at once that, from a broad and shortsighted perspective, might seem contradictory but are not. the two are not mutually exclusive just because the differences are subtle.
nuance: the whole point of this post. internalize that please 😭
edit: and stop telling me what I am asking women and advocates to do. that is abusive behavior. very not cool, especially in this context. :(
Thank you, it’s hard to fight for nuance in such a polarised world, but I appreciate your tenacity.
We can all be winners if we just talk
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You obviously don’t understand the meme and, at least from where I stand, are part of the problem.
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sdfsaf
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Stopping the progressive downfall of society is on all of society, period. What’s the end game of alienating half the race?
You’re right about one thing. Women can’t make men not rape, and it doesn’t really fall to them. Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don’t rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas? And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
Changing society is a game everyone has to be on board with. Everyone makes up society, so you can’t just tell half of them they’re not fit and expect it just to work out. Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I’m tired of having to be “one of the good ones”. We already decided labeling someone one of the good ones wasn’t right with black people, we really need to have that fight again?
Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don’t rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas?
Yes, precisely. If the majority of men don’t change the culture by standing up for women and against low-key misogyny that’s everywhere then nothing will change and they aren’t really “good guys”.
And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
Dunno. But there’s certainly a LOT of misogynists on Lemmy and I’m going to keep pushing back against them. They probably think they’re feminists, too. Quoting bear statistics, saying “not all men”, equivocating gender and race relations, telling women to “tone down” their complains so they don’t alienate rapists and potential rapists.
Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I’m tired of having to be “one of the good ones”.
Lol, don’t fret. With an attitude like that, you aren’t.
black people
We aren’t talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don’t understand what’s going on. No surprise.
Not gonna bother with the nuance-missing ad hom attacks. Just this one.
We aren’t talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don’t understand what’s going on. No surprise.
If you can’t see that it is 100% an equivalent situation, you have no idea why people are actually upset and just want to join the noise.
Also, don’t call me honey. It’s really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
Also, don’t call me honey. It’s really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
Whoosh
Oh no, I got your intent. Believe me.
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Do tell how I am being transphobic. I did not speak of sex nor cis/trans distinctions. And binary trans people (cannot speak to nonbinary) have experience as both genders.
Also how is this pointless? The entire discussion revolves around the Patriarchy: a social system that gives dominance to men. Gender is at the heart of it. Trying to apply this discussion to other fields falls short because it is discussing the nuances of gender politics and the Patriarchy in particular. Which is why trying to overlay this discussion onto race or nationality doesn’t make sense (referring to other common arguments, not this thread in particular).
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Thanks. I’m not sure what it is but any talk of men-women gender privilege gets a LOT of flak from pro-men posters on Lemmy. Unsure if it’s instance-based or just general userbase outside LGBT+ instances. I’ve blocked a few bad ones but I see the flak from across a wide array of instances.
I try to push back hard against disingenuous arguments to try to clue people in. I’ve tried what this thread suggests, and still do try to use logic and honest discussion but when I see the same dumb argument 5 times in a thread, I lose patience.
Calling transphobia in such a disingenuous way is pretty gross. There is nothing wrong with your comment, as trans man I stand fully behind it. Bigots try to divide feminists and trans people often in similar ways but we won’t let them ❤️
Dudes need to sack up and realize there’s a lot of dudes out there that are creepy. It’s up to you as a stand up dude to call these creepy dudes out when they act up. Women don’t owe you anything, you stand up for them because it’s the right thing to do, and not because you want sex.
Being a model and force of positive masculinity is chad, sigma-pilled, and hot as hell. 🙂↕️🥵🐺💪
Telling dudes to sack up is toxic masculinity. I thought we were against that.
Nothing wrong with masculinity. Toxic masculinity is what we are against.
Toxic masculinity is applying that mentality to something inherent to men. So, man up, sack up, nut up, etc. The implication is that if you are not masculine, you should start being so. You got nuts, use em. Pretty toxic.
How about “grow up” “act an adult” or the like, at least then we’re not tying ability to change and be better with genital status.
Thanks for mansplaining
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They aren’t the one I was replying to and I don’t need a concept explained to me that I already understand.
Settle down.
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sdfsaf
Ok there. Have a nice day.
I was just trying to be helpful. No need to attack me for it.
Not in the context of the statement. If I punched them in the shoulder and said “sack up and don’t rub it” that would be toxic, sure. Instead I’m saying sack up/man up and have a higher level of emotional intelligence which is not exactly a classic toxic masculinity trait.
What you’re telling men is that they shouldn’t talk about how the constant referral to creepy men/douchebags as simply “men” does have a negative effect on the mental health of normal men and the way women perceive them.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, I think the biggest impact of decent men standing up for fair treatment for women will simply be to make the cretins run back under their rocks - certainly good, but not enough. It’ll take generational change, changing the way boys are raised, the kind that’s been slowly happening with each successive wave of feminism, to truly solve this problem.
I was lucky enough to have a mother who was, despite being otherwise fairly conservative, unyieldingly feminist (in practice and speech, if not in labeling). I was raised with the knowledge that women, fundamentally, are people (gasp), for better and worse, and that society unfairly discriminates against women and harasses them for no other reason than the petty cruelty of a few who benefit and the many who are easily misled or hope to benefit.
Muslims need to sack up and realize there’s a lot of Muslims out there that are creepy. It’s up to you as a stand up Muslim to call these creepy Muslims out when they act up. Normal people don’t owe you anything, you stand up for them because it’s the right thing to do, and not because you want acceptance.
Yes but do you condemn Hamas.
But people actually choose to support a book that suggests stoning gay people to death. It’s not an inherent part of what you are.
Know what tipped me off that Lemmy really doesn’t get nuance?
There was an article about a ride-share / taxi company that cateted to women and provided drivers who were also women, to make them feel safer getting a ride.
The comments were absolutely venomous, calling it out as “sexism” and how “what’s to stop me from identifying as a woman and calling? They can’t refuse me!” which… fuckin’ oof.
But I figured out why they’re upset: because they want people to be treated equally instead of acknowledging that some people have different needs that may require extra services to level the playing field.
Equality vs. Equity.
Wait Cabracadabra is real!?
I agree with your comment though, taking special care for vulnerable populations is important and when in a privileged position can (incorrectly) feel like exclusion.
I think young men who are at a particular vulnerable and formative age seek community and to make their impression on the world.
That feeling has been weaponized by alt-right influencers to start a culture war in order to stifle class conflict.
💯💯💯
Since discovering I’m trans I’ve shaken myself out of this hardcore “rational” mindset that I feel is poisoning the internet.
It’s the moderate point of view that the marginalized needs to remain “civil” and shouldn’t get overly emotional or say anything hyperbolic.
Every statement needs to be followed with multiple asterisks responding to every possible angle of your statement. All until everything boils down to tepid “bad things are bad” statements, or writing things off as “case by case”.
It’s this hyperdrive to remain unbiased to the point that taking any stance reveals your biased and you lose.
Our ability to sit around and debate all day like greek philosophers is a recent luxury that’s drying up. We need to commit to action, and action requires strong emotional stances by the marginalized.
The fact that is post got removed for trolling is exactly why my feelings towards the bear meme have evolved from annoyed to “Reminded of the multiple times women have attempted to use cops as a weapon against me”
This has happened to you multiple times? In what type of situation does this happen to you?
Bad people who happen to be women, know that they will be given the benefit of the doubt, and can 911 during an argument
Holy shit I am so sorry this happened to you!?! That is not cool.
ACAB and also abusive women can kick rocks
Everyone has a right to be heard.
Everyone has a right to their pain.
Someone else’s pain being acknowledged and addressed does not invalidate yours.
Comparing pain leads only to a race to the bottom when we should all be lifting each other up.
Acknowledging someone’s pain also makes it easier to understand their motives, find common ground, and love forward together
love forward
wait i love this actually i don’t know if it was a typo or not and honestly i don’t care this is such a beautiful phrase
The Virgin Exclusive vs. The Chad Dialectic
looks up what those words mean
so true
I agree. That doesn’t mean women should step back to please men, rather that we all as a society need to take the problem of disenfranchised men as the serious issue and long term threat to stable society that it is. This doesn’t mean that we need to fight them, just communicate to them in a better way.
Excellently written!
Thank you.
EDIT: Post has restored and it turned out to be a misunderstanding! Thank you to the mod team for being really chill about this. :)
You guys have no clue how sad I am that the mods did this. I reached out for an explanation, but nothing so far, and all that positive discussion and holding each other accountable is just wiped out, meanwhile all of the other posts full of straight up misogynistic hate and flaming is still up. Guess this is what I get for trying to be a good actor online.
Take heart. Should the reason be less than stellar, the fediverse protects you by offering numerous venues to share your thoughts.
Fundamentally, you only require an audience who wishes to hear. You were able to come to this place and share anyway. No one can dominate the discussion. It’s a beautiful thing.
Honestly serves me right for trusting any .world community without JonsJava as a mod. 😝 JonsJava and the Blahaj mods are what make this platform bearable.
Edit: The mods reached out and were actually very kind about the misunderstanding. No hard feelings!
I’m not sure youth disenfranchisement is caused by bad rhetoric considering the other causes like wealth inequality and generally poor life fulfillment
No, not caused by, it just feeds the confirmation bias of people who are already on that mental path.
Being kind and understanding to bigoted men has done nothing for feminism. This meme is ignorant of the feminist struggle.
I am not calling to be kind and understanding to bigoted men for sure!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
I would like to respectfully remind you of bell hooks and her work towards bridging the gaps between men and women.
The big one is The Will to Change, an excellent feminist text about being kind and understanding to men who act in bigoted ways; she does acknowledge that there are, of course, many men who are unwilling to listen.
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everyone knows you catch more flies with honey and all of that
The best part of this metaphor is that it’s incorrect. You catch more flies with vinegar than honey.
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sdfsaf
Rotten fruit smells of vinegar and they’re attracted to that that’s why. If you want to get rid of fruit flies (It happens, no need to be ashamed) the usual trick is a glass of diluted vinegar with some soap added to lower the surface tension so the flies can’t Jesus all over it.
Bees and wasps and stuff, though, you can catch a lot of those with honey.
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When these people come out and say things like “women are just as bad as men“ anytime sexual violence is brought up, which is categorically untrue, there has to be pushback or these ridiculous notions get normalized and internalized.
Absolutely agree. Please do this :)
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See my other comments for a very full and nuanced explanation. I didn’t respond to your comment in full because there is a level of accusation that I don’t have the emotional bandwidth for right now. Example:
Stop pushing back against right wing shit bags.
This is you forcing words I would never say in my mouth. Please be kind and mindful of what you are doing to me. I don’t want to be an ass and block you but this is incredibly mean.
My actual position: Push back hard against right wing shit bags. At the same time, be mindful that very young men, often age 10-20, are still malleable and incredibly succeptible to the right wing antifeminist propaganda machine, and we have the opportunity to do better than last generation by getting those children on our side. Fuck fascist misogynist pigs though and never coddle them.
I hope this doesn’t come off too mean, it is just very tiring to be ~ told what I believe ~ by people who might ordinarily agree with me.
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Hey. Other commenters in this post are getting my point just fine. I am sorry that you refuse to read their comments, but that is a decision you made, not me. I don’t owe you a personalized breakdown of every misconception you are having the moment you bring it to the table, nor does anyone else, especially if you refuse to peruse a few threads.
That said, I hope other commenters who have more time than me can help you out. For my part this conversation between us is over.
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When it comes to the Internet, there is a very serious right wing problem
AKA mostly Russian trolls pushing for division and ultimately civil war, and CCP trolls doing their thing, depending on the issue.
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sdfsaf
I saw your post and don’t think it should have been removed, let alone banned, but I don’t think you did yourself any favours in the comments. You kept asserting it as fact that there is a huge problem with silencing SA survivors, and when asked to give evidence, the only thing you had was three comments in the same thread, where the one sexist guy was being downvoted and the multiple people correcting him were upvoted. Not good evidence of a systemic problem.
(Ironically, you now do have that evidence, in the form of your ban.)
Literally no. Entirely different post you are referencing, one that is still up in fact.
Many of the votes reversed after I made this post due to brigading. Careful, you are spreading a bit of misinformation here, dude. :)
You are being very deceitful here, dude
Wow, rude. An honest mistake is not deceit.
Are you sure the one that got taken down wasn’t just because you were being an arse to people for no reason, like you are here?
Anyway, I’m glad the one I saw did not get you removed or banned. As I said, it wouldn’t have deserved that.
Sorry if this was an honest mistake I apologize. Edited my comment
I have gotten no shortage of personal insults for trying to be kind and fair over the past day so I hope you understand why I jumped to being defensive in this situation too.
Thank you for your kind words and I hope you have a good one ✌️
Peace, friend. ✌️
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How does the man/bear discussion disenfranchise and antagonize young men?
On top of not being a creeper, you also need to bathe regularly to get a chance at a date.
Does the fact that you have to bathe regularly antagonize and disenfranchise young men?
I would argue the man/bear thought experiment gives young men a useful look inside the average womans life that they wouldn’t have had otherwise.
I don’t read this as the discussion disenfranchising young men, rather just stating that the broader disenfranchisement of the working class has its effect of making many men vulnerable to far right rhetoric of a day where many white cis-het men did not have to try, like at all (at least, that’s the rhetoric).
I read this as saying that we need to counter these societal issues on multiple fronts; not pandering to right-wing men, while also not letting the far right rhetoric take hold of younger men. Offering a good alternative which actually helps them (leftism) instead.
Exactly this. ^^^ Excellent expression of my position, thanks homie :)
I see, I may have misinterpreted it.
One of these things (bathing) is a trait you can have, and change. The other (maleness) is one that you cannot (reasonably, for most people) change.
It’s easy enough to be told “I don’t want to interact with you because you smell” - I can change that with just a bit of effort. It sucks to hear “I’d rather interact with a bear, because you’re a male.” That’s something I have no control over. You’re telling me that a fundamental aspect of my existence means that I’m a threat to you, and that I can’t be trusted around.
Quite simply, replace “man” with “black person” and try the whole experiment again, you’ll probably see how gross the argument is.
Your feelings are valid, but so are women’s. If 1 out of every 6 of my friends got shot by a black person, then I would rather be in the woods with the bear instead of a black person. Now, does that justify treating black people badly and avoiding them, no. You can have a feeling and understand why it is bad and racist and not act on it. Do women avoid men, no. Feelings are not the same as actions. You can be afraid of what might happen while going out on a first date with a man.
The outcome man/bear thought experiment never said that all men are bad/rapists.
Can you change it, yes. But it is harder (societal changes).
- Make sure your male friends understand consent. The 1 out of 6 number is how many women who have experienced sexual violence against them.
- I know a lot of women watch crime scene investigations. Maybe throw some real statistics about crime in those shows, so that women don’t get the idea that there is a murderer around every corner.
This post got banned from [email protected] for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕
I find it really disrespectful as well since it was one of the most productive and well tempered OPs on this whole drama arc, at least on Lemmy.
I was “groomed” into the far-right around 2006-2010, and I have to say progressives always understood me much better than anyone on the right. Best the right could do is blame my single mother for remarrying to an abusive jerk due to financial necessity, my father for not taking me with himself to my also abusive stepmother (my actual parents also needed a lot of self-reflection to be at least tolerable), and of course the same scaremongering and Jordan Peterson-level life “advices” that are popular today. They were way more transparent about not understanding gaming and the likes, unlike today’s right that pretends to care about it with its gamergates and similar culture war talking points.
Thanks for sharing that experience wow!
And welcome back to the cool as hell, progressive, respecting of human dignity club 💖🙂↕️🐺💪 we missed you
I was wondering where this post went. I was so confused when it dissapeared - someone in the comments had mentioned a community called “nuance posting” or something and I was trying to find it :\
yeah that was me 😭 the community doesn’t exist but itd be cool if it did
