Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.

Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.

“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.

  • ohlaph@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I don’t mind organized religion. What I do hate is that religion pushing their beliefs onto everyone they meet, pushing their religion beliefs throughout school systems, etc. If religious can keep to themselves, I see it like yoga or CrossFit.

    • CADmonkey@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      A crossfit trainer, an ex-marine, and a born-again christian all walk into a bar.

      We know that, because they won’t stop telling everyone.

    • TheCee@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      If religious can keep to themselves

      Since religions compete, that doesn’t sound feasible.

      • Senuf@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Although all religions are useless and shouldn’t have any privilege, only to be practiced in their own spaces, I am aware that not all religions compete in a proselytistic way. I understand that, for example, Judaism doesn’t proselytise and that “converting” to Judaism is even a long and difficult process, which makes me think it is like discouraging conversion, in some way, by making it so uphill.

        • TheCee@programming.dev
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          1 year ago

          Pretty sure you can be born into judaism, though. Chances are, it is even the default scenario with even semi-religious parents.

          That’s not “keeping to yourself” to me. That’s like passing the cigarettes to your kids.

          • Senuf@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            Yeah, I agree, to a certain point. Most Jewish people I know, though, aren’t religious at all but for following certain traditions that don’t even include eating kosher food. Of course that doesn’t include orthodox Jews, but I don’t know any.

            As for the training of it (“That’s not “keeping to yourself” to me. That’s like passing the cigarettes to your kids” and the “default scenario”), well, it’s the default upbringing in every family. Besides exceptions, conservative parents will raise conservative kids because that’s their growing environment, the same with more liberal ones, etc. That’s not proselytising, it’s a while different thing

            • TheCee@programming.dev
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              That’s not proselytising, it’s a while different thing

              I don’t see your point. How is brainwashing children ok when wololo-ing people is not? Even from an egocentric perspective, you have to live in a society.

              • Senuf@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                I never said brainwashing children was ok as far as I can recall. Would you mind pointing at the part where I said so it or even implied so?

                What I said is that that isn’t proselytising. It’s a different concept to raise your kids in a certain way and to go to others who already have a different faith (or none) and try to convince them to convert.

                Of course, I know that everyone is born without any religion and by that account the limit is blurred, yet to raise a kid into one’s own faith and/or traditions is not the same as proselytising.

                As for Judaism, I stand by what I said: it’s not proselytist in the way other religions are, trying to convert other people. I don’t judge it as bad or as good, I don’t care. I just state a fact as I’ve seen/read.

                Edit: word

                • TheCee@programming.dev
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                  I never said brainwashing children was ok as far as I can recall.

                  Fair enough, you didn’t. I apologize. I lost track of the chain of posters and mixed you up with the first poster who didn’t seem to recognize the dangers of passing belief to children.

                  As for Judaism, I stand by what I said: it’s not proselytist in the way other religions are, trying to convert other people. I don’t judge it as bad or as good, I don’t care. I just state a fact as I’ve seen/read.

                  That may be case. Which is possibly why, historically speaking, Judaism doesn’t seem to be on the winning side. Which is bad, because it means opportunities for more fanatical, agressive religions.

                  • Senuf@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    Apologies accepted, of course.

                    That may be case. Which is possibly why, historically speaking, Judaism doesn’t seem to be on the winning side. Which is bad, because it means opportunities for more fanatical, agressive religions.

                    On one hand, I agree. Yet I think that had Judaism been more proselytist, it would have gained more followers and, probably, been more fanatical and aggressive. I mean, ultraorthodix Jews are as fanatical as your fellow Taliban or the right-wing Christians.

                    Thanks for this exchange of opinions.

    • cmhe@lemmy.world
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      IDK about equalizing religion and yoga. At minimum, the yoga exercises seem pretty useful for getting a flexible and healthy body, and (judeo-christian) religous ceremonies are mostly just a reason for people to get together, which many other activities can do as well.

      The positives that people get from religion are mostly about the feeling of being part of a community, with their own lore, rules, codex and ceremonies. Just like DnD groups, with the major difference that some members actually belief all of that stuff, which is spooky and dangerous, because that opens these people to all sorts of other crazy ideas.

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      I mind the normalization of magical thinking. It’s the same reason I bristle at astrology and tarot and luck charms.

      • kicksystem@lemmy.world
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        And that has a whole bunch of negative consequences, because these people won’t listen to reason if it inconveniences them

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      Unfortunately you can’t have religion without people trying to evangelize. It’s part of the problem.

          • cogman@lemmy.world
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            Yeah, sort of funny. A good number of religions are hard to convert to (or don’t take converts). Partially because religion in human history has been a tool for a community to distinguish why they are better than outsiders. A lot of older religions died from this exclusivity.

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        1 year ago

        That’s not correct. Where I live, religion is intertwined with daily life and yet nobody ever tried to talk me into anything

      • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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        There’s a world of difference between “you should join my religion, we don’t eat fish” and “my religion says you can’t eat fish.”

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      1 year ago

      Agreed

      Atheism and science are also a type of religious belief. Ultimately, as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone else or trying to force their beliefs on others, I don’t care what they believe.

      • HikingVet@lemmy.sdf.org
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        Could you expand your thoughts on this?

        I’m always curious when this is said as to what is meant when Atheism and science are called religious.

        • Soggy@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          “ThEy AlL rEqUiRe FaItH”

          It’s a gross misunderstanding or intentional misrepresentation.

        • nBodyProblem@lemmy.world
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          Sure. To be clear, I’m an engineer and an atheist so I don’t mean it to attack either Athiesm or science by any means.

          To start with, we cannot get true knowledge of the world outside ourselves by sensory perception alone. Rather, the way we interpret our sensory inputs is by applying it to some metaphysical framework of how we believe the outside world works.

          As a small example, Descartes famously brought up analogy of a melting candle. A totally naive person being born into existence would see melted wax and hardened wax as two different substances. Sensory perception alone would lie to this person. Only by interpreting it through this metaphysical framework do we come to the conclusion that melted wax and hardened wax are the same thing at different temperatures.

          This extends to deeper concepts that we can’t directly explain by our experience alone. At some point we stop using our own direct experience and expand our metaphysical framework using something else.

          The thing that springs from that “something else” is religion, and in many instances it doesn’t necessarily encompass a concept of divinity or worship. In abrahamic religions it is the Judeo-Christian god. In Daoism it’s the belief in the Dao, an unexplainable force tied to the events of the natural world. In science it’s belief in the scientific method’s ability to produce objective truth with sufficient cooperation and experimentation. They’re all models of the outside world that stem from something beyond a single individuals sensory perception.

          • lingh0e@lemmy.film
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            1 year ago

            Spiritual faith and faith in the scientific method are not the same.

            Scientific knowledge is SUPPOSED to be challenged and changed as we gain new information. Religious faith is expected to be accepted without question and regardless of information.

            • nBodyProblem@lemmy.world
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              Spiritual faith and faith in the scientific method are not the same.

              They’re both belief systems pertaining to knowledge of the universe beyond your immediate perception

              Scientific knowledge is SUPPOSED to be challenged and changed as we gain new information.

              Of course. However, the central tenet of science doesn’t rely on scientific knowledge but the scientific method itself and it’s assumed power to find objective truth. Any questions about the viability of the scientific method to find objective truth tend to be aggressively rejected.

              Religious faith is expected to be accepted without question and regardless of information.

              This isn’t necessarily true. There are some religions that have no authoritative text, central authority, or official dogma; they encourage new perspectives in the nature of the universe. Daoism is one.

      • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Atheism? Sure some New Atheist branches practice it like a faith

        Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler