Those seem incompatible to me.
(UBI means Universal Basic Income, giving everyone a basic income, for free)
In trials, it has consistently boosted productivity. More people need it in order to be productive than the amount that choose to be less productive once they won’t die from not being productive.
Also in trials, it has not costed more than current social programs in those areas. Clearing redundancies and red tape accounted for enough cost cuts to make UBI overall cost a similar amount or less than what all the various programs with all their various overhead costed all added together.
Exactly, this whole discussion should not be about what people feel about it.
Trials have shown it works beneficially. Quite so. Nevermind the standard of living increase and getting people off the streets, those aren’t even included in that, it’s just about productivity that is boosted.
So yeah, whenever someone says they feel it’d be negative, we tried it already, facts disagree with your feelings.
Now we only have to elect decision makers that make policy on facts and not feelings.
And like that, you’ve dashed my dreams if a brighter future…
If I could afford to only work 4 days a week, those 4 days would most likely be a lot more productive as I would have time to get treatment for my chronic illnesses.
I have been told by HR last year to use my surplus vacation days somewhere. I used them on every Monday for half a year. I got not only more productive, but also less stressed. It works.
I can manage financially with 2 days of work a week, and I’m now at a point where I would not want to scale back because my work would become of lower quality. Every Monday would be like coming back from a vacation, and I think I’d lose touch and feel with the job.
Those 5 days weekend sure give me time for personally enriching hobbies!
Society couldn’t function if most people worked like you. I’m happy for you and it’s the exact place I want to be but I think its only possible in our current framework.
With increasing automation, it could totally work soon
Also, a fair bit of work is work for the sake of work. It doesn’t enrich society, just the capitalism machine. So if UBI were enacted on a large scale, there is plenty of unnecessary work that can go by the wayside.
It actually could. Imagine if salary had increased in accordance to the productivity boosts that automation has brought. Then you could have 3 people, working 2 days a week, sharing a job and being able to live from it. After all, it used to take more than 3 people to do the work a single person does nowadays.
I thought instances where UBI has been tried, it’s failed - is that not the case?
It has been massively successful in a bunch of locations. Where are you seeing reports that it failed?
No. It’s overwhelmingly a positive outcome.
The funniest thing is it’s the same basic argument as free market Vs planned economy. The individual knows better what they need right now. Why this doesn’t appeal more to the right than it does says a lot about a good chunk of right wing politics.
The current system is akin to a planned economy. You are told what you can spend the money on, and what you can’t. UBI lets the end recipient decide where it’s most useful. E.g. for one person, a car is a worthless expense, while better food makes a big difference. For another, they are ok living on cheaper food for a while, but a replacement car would let them bootstrap themselves upwards, economically.
Trials where?
Studies in motivational theory have been around for years which generally agree that at a very basic level people need security first, not necessarily to motivate but to be in a position to be motivated. Repeatedly pay has been proven to be a poor motivator over time. By removing the basic insecurity that people face, you give them a chance to focus on actual motivating factors like job satisfaction, self-worth and realisation.
I am on parental leave right now and doing chores around the house never have been more fun and fulfilling.
I don’t have to think about work, we have enough money to not worry about being short at the end of the parental leave. I can concentrate on what is important right now (my family) and not worry about the rest.
If you don’t have to worry about basic things of life, you will find a fullfilling purpose. But the system as set up right now is a scam and people are increasingly squeezed for basic necessities, so they can’t afford to have a purpose.
Absolutely. Security is the enemy of fear and capitalism. Fear as Frank Herbert put it, is the mind killer. If we have security, all of a sudden the horrendous business practices capitalism has been built on and motivated by. Sort of fall apart. Go to work in a soul crushing job, with a toxic environment, for too little pay? Why, when you could stay home and start your own business, maybe even become a better competitor. Or just wait for something better to come along.
Fear is the tool of the powerful. Whether it’s fear of some group they tell you to fear. Or fearing them directly. Without fear, many of the crises we seem to constantly be juggling. Would find themselves solved. Humanity has the ability to feed and house everyone. Right now. The reason we don’t is that the wealthy and powerful would lose wealth and power. And we can’t have that.
If security is the enemy of capitalism, how do you explain people who have their needs met, who still strive under capitalism?
People who have their needs met would strive regardless of capitalism. You need to show that they strive because of capitalism. The problem is, capitalism doesn’t meet the needs of a large amount of people. No matter how hard they strive. Nor should it be necessary for them to. Worse capitalism short changes them. And is very inefficient.
UBI on it’s own is not a problem for me. Where I take issue is when politicians say “we’ll give you cash instead of these social safety net programs”. I think you have to have a mix of UBI and social safety net programs. It’s all about raising the floor of the lowest living conditions we’ll allow and right now, in America at least, we have too many rich people and too many poor people. A UBI of $1000/month doesn’t help a person stuck in an ICU for months at a time and will just discharge to a SNF/LTAC facility.
UBI would not replace the need for universal healthcare.
Andrew Yang famously ran on a UBI platform, his plan was very clear on that issue, but he was very vague on his healthcare plan https://2020.yang2020.com/policies/medicare-for-all/
Yeah. I supported Yang to help popularize the idea but he’s just a wolf in sheep’s skin trying to get rich.
I’m still not sure if he was actually in favor or just pandering, but at least he put it on the stage.
I knew Yang was a fraud from the start. It was his “you have a freedom to choose between UBI and safety social nets” that made it clear to me. Took a long fucking time for other left leaning folks to catch on. He was getting way too much attention. That’s actually why I liked Michael Brooks so much. He was one of the few at the time that saw through it
It’s basically the Social Security plus Medicare combo like seniors in America get. It’s not great or perfect but even if that’s all you live on you can get by ok. The USA could just lower the ages. I know lowering the Medicare age comes and goes in the conversation about healthcare reform
Social safety net programs are fine but unless they’re universal they’ll inevitably create benefit cliffs which punish people for making more money. They also cost money to administer. UBI is super cheap and easy to administer: if you’re a citizen you get a check or deposit every month. Simple. You could probably manage the entire operation with less than 1000 people.
I’ve always wanted UBI to be a thing but after a discussion with my brother I’m second guessing it. His argument is that corporations will just increase their prices and not much would change.
He suggested that instead, we use the money that we would use for UBI to guarantee that EVERYONE’S basic needs are met. Housing, food, healthcare, etc…
I know it’s easier said than done but I’m just worried that billionaires will fuck up UBI like they fuck up everything else.
He’s assuming infinite elasticity, which isn’t how prices work in real life.
The typical version of this argument is that the people who are being taxed in the first place are the ones increasing rents. In which case taxes can then be increased until the desired equilibrium is achieved.
That’s not to say we couldn’t also provide a basic safety net like he describes. But that raises the question of why UBI should stop there. If our economy can generate a surplus, then why shouldn’t all humans sharing their slice of the Earth get it?
CaUsE cOmMuNiSm
Man, I wish Henry George could’ve convinced Karl Marx of that.
He suggested that instead, we use the money that we would use for UBI to guarantee that EVERYONE’S basic needs are met. Housing, food, healthcare, etc…
That is the entire purpose of UBI. Literally.
No he’s altering who has the cash.
In his discussion he means:
-
if the customer is given free cash, corporations might jack up prices to get some of it.
-
if the customer has free healthcare, the corporation doesn’t see any “free cash” they can get some of. Of course they’re aware the customer should be spending less on necessities like healthcare, but they aren’t necessarily bringing home more than they were last month, they’re just retaining more.
-
Yup that’s a common critique of UBI. Landlords will jack up rent and end up hovering a huge amount of the benefits. Your landlord knows you’re all of a sudden making $12k more per year? Welcome to your new $10k rent hike.
For UBI to function we need basic price controls or necessities provided for before it makes any sense to introduce.
If I’m earning $12,000 more a year I could just buy a house. The reason that house ownership is low is because people can’t afford it, but house prices aren’t affected by the whims of landlords, they’re affected by availability. They can’t really be artificially modified.
Corps would just find a way to be the ones to supplies those basic needs. They would still inflate prices and deliver substandard results.
Capitalism is the problem
As one implementation of that, a UBI can simplify the complexities of the existing safety net systems and smooth the welfare cliff.
I no longer need to pay for low income housing (I can just get some money and rent something), I’m no longer restricted by what an EBT card can buy (I just get money), I don’t need to qualify for XYZ niche benefit (I just get some money), etc. And that money could more easily be adjusted/reduced as my income grows which smooths the welfare cliff.
It also frees up a ton of money that was previously used to manage the existing complex systems and allows more efficient spending.
And that money could more easily be adjusted/reduced as my income grows which smooths the welfare cliff.
It’s important to note that UBI isn’t supposed to be a form of welfare. The idea is it’s a basic citizen right. It’s not means tested in any way so you should get it regardless of your income otherwise you’re disincentivised to increase your income (which is a problem a lot of benefits currently have), if I go to work for 8 hours a day and then come home and have the exact same or less money than I would have had on benefits then what’s the point? The government, mostly the conservative types, would like to classify that as lazy scrounging but it’s just economic savvy.
If I get UBI whatever then any extra money I earn is for luxuries, I can then spend that money and contribute to the economy rather than holding on to it in case the boiler decides to blow up all the car breaks down or something which is what most people are currently doing.
Everyone benefits when everyone benefits.
I completely agree and (hopefully) understand that. I only mention it as welfare because I believe that’s harder to argue against and at least gets us most of the way there.
As for working 8 hours and still making the same as you would on benefits, I see this issue today constantly in the current (US) system. Especially around people with disabilities who would otherwise be able to work.
UBI is the ideal, but replacing the complex welfare system with something cash based (similar to UBI, or exactly as UBI for certain demographics) would be a great first step.
Yeah, if money = power, and everybody gets some from the government, I think that what the UBI is spent on will be controlled. You must spend it on basic needs or your account will be frozen.
My main worry is that UBI will be a Trojan Horse to control the spending of everyone receiving it, possibly through some central distribution system. That’s how I think the billionaires will fuck it up.
Prices are not set by how much money you are capable of spending, it’s set by supply and demand. The only time that’s not true is when a company is a monopoly and the good is something you can’t do without. Of course, a huge part of the problem is that we have way too many monopolies so yes, some companies will be able to raise their prices without pressure from competition, but you’d still be better off since not all companies are monopolies.
If they need a purpose, they’ll find it much easier when they don’t have to worry about basic fuckin’ survival.
I think what they’re trying to say is nobody will want to work shit jobs for next to no pay.
I don’t see how that’s a bad thing except for employers. If the job is worth doing, the money should be worth it too. People shouldn’t be forced to do shitty/dangerous jobs just to survive.
That’s a common theme most people here overlook. Some people actually enjoy working hard and getting things done. We don’t need to support the lazy people.
Are there some shitty jobs that don’t deserve higher pay because of the value they contribute? Or do you see that being a business that shouldn’t exist? So let’s take a sewer company or something. Or any maintenance position where it’s not clear there’s a dollar value on the value being produced.
For example, restaurant probably aren’t possible if waiters and back of house are all paid 30/h.
I’m mostly trying to understand what you’re really trying to get at. I don’t think its possible for all jobs to be equally paying or be equally good - there’s always going to be inequality there. Unless you’re arguing there shouldn’t be shitty jobs but there’s literally always going to be shitty jobs in any society and economic framework you spin up.
Society will still need people who perform maintenance on sewers, do construction, clean building etc
For example, restaurant probably aren’t possible if waiters and back of house are all paid 30/h.
Somehow in every country other than the US they are able to pay restaurant staff a living wage.
From your example, what I’m saying is nobody should be cleaning a sewer for minimum wage. If you need your sewer fixed you can either do it yourself or pay someone enough that they’d be willing to do it.
If you can’t pay someone enough, obviously fixing that sewer wasn’t important enough to you.
I’m not saying everyone should get the same wage. There’s a huge difference between flipping burgers and working in a mine, and the pay should reflect that.
I want UBI so all the lazy motherfuckers who don’t want to work get out of the fucking way. Sit at home in front of your TVs cramming doritos down your gullet all day for all I care, just as long as you aren’t half passing whatever job you’re doing and creating problems for me.
That is a very unique take And a very very good argument to people against it
Yes, except that costs will also go up for services because there will be fewer workers. I’m in favor of UBI but it will definitely increase costs, especially for wealthy people who rely on relatively cheap help.
Most wealthy people don’t even manage their own households. They hire people to drive their cars, cook their food, and take care of their children. They pay other people to build or renovate their houses and even manage the building and renovating.
People won’t want to work for low amounts of money. It will literally be too expensive to be wealthy. The few people who do want to work in service positions are going to ask Jeff Bezos for a million dollars a year.
It will literally be too expensive to be wealthy
Ohhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooo
Yeah, it is contradictory.
I’m gonna spin an anecdote here.
My main job for the first twenty years of my adult life was as a nurse’s assistant.
It wore out my body early, and I’ve been disabled because of that almost as long .
I got paid shit for doing it. Many of my coworkers were shit because of the bad pay, but it was the still the best job they could get, so the job tended to be split unevenly between people that were willing to bust their ass taking care of other people, and a minority that shouldn’t have been allowed anywhere near a patient for one reason or another.
UBI? I would have still shown up. I would have done the job with joy in my heart. I wood have been happier because I would have been able to take breaks between patient deaths to grieve. I would have been able to leave shitty businesses sooner and fight to have them changed when they made choices against patient interests instead of being a disposable helper monkey that nobody would listen to.
It’s true that I would not have put up with bullshit idiots in administration. I would not have worn myself into a nub just to barely make enough to survive and then still need side jobs.
With UBI I could have done more, better, and not have had to destroy myself in the process. It would have been a reason to work that job. It would have meant the freedom to do the job better because I wouldn’t have been forced to work to survive when I was blatantly and obviously unable to give my best.
And, even if UBI was the only money I got, I would have at least done the job part time because it was my purpose in life. I made helping people my purpose, no matter what it cost me. Why the fuck wouldn’t I have done the same when I didn’t have to eat shit to do it?
It’s true that I would not have put up with bullshit idiots in administration.
This is, on some level, exactly what they are worried about.
Precisely what they are worried about.
From a capitalist perspective it’s ideal if your workers are on the verge of poverty, living paycheck to paycheck. That’s exactly where you want them.
People in that situation won’t complain. Won’t stand up for themselves or their rights. Will take poor treatment and deal with it. Will work in unethical or even illegal ways and keep quiet because they have no choice.
Even better if you can tie people’s health insurance to their job, then you’ve really got them by the balls.
UBI would put an end to all that, so it’s no wonder business owners would lobby against it.
From a capitalist perspective it’s ideal if your workers are on the verge of poverty, living paycheck to paycheck. That’s exactly where you want them.
People in that situation won’t complain. Won’t stand up for themselves or their rights. Will take poor treatment and deal with it. Will work in unethical or even illegal ways and keep quiet because they have no choice.
Even better if you can tie people’s health insurance to their job, then you’ve really got them by the balls.
I’ve got a pretty decent job, and earn pretty good money. But I’m the only earner in a family of four and no, we haven’t made all the best financial decisions at times.
What you have described is exactly where we live, and while there isn’t that much I want to stand up to at work in the first place, 100% I don’t make any waves that don’t have a basis in the hard facts of my job, and for this very reason. I’d like to go in an ask for a merit based raise, I’d like to fight harder for more people to be hired in our (spread very thin) department, and there are a few other things I’d like to at least ask for and feel OK about standing firm on.
But I don’t, because I don’t want to jeopardize what I’ve got.
I feel for you, it’s a real situation.
I’m fortunate in that I’ve managed to build up a bit of “fuck you” money. So-called because if my employer did anything awful I could say “fuck you” and walk away, and know I had I few months of buffer.
It definitely makes me feel more able to stand up for myself and others when I don’t fear the consequences of losing my job. I wish everyone could feel that way because it would make society a better place, and UBI would help.
Bingo! “If we make it easier for you to survive, you will become harder to take advantage of”
Agreed!
Ignoring their ideas entirely, it’s incredibly simple. There are two options.
-
No ubi. Eventually AI automates all jobs, the 1% becomes virtually omnipotent, and everyone else dies.
-
Ubi. Some of the profits earned by companies are funneled into the ubi system. As such, everyone has income. The economy booms, everyone thrives, and we reach post scarcity.
We’ve already reached post scarcity. Any current scarcity is manufactured.
If you don’t have funds to buy resources then that seems to be accurate scarcity no?
The point is that there is no actual scarcity as in “we don’t have the resources”. We do have the resources, they’re just distributed in a way that is profoundly unfair.
That’s a matter of access, not whether a sufficient amount of resources exist.
How about option 3: we stay the same and the world doesn’t end in fire and death.
-
UBI is not a matter of “if”, it’s of “when”.
With automation and the fuckin AI, companies can do more and more with less and less people.
The concept of unemployement will be alien as well.
In a cool universe maybe, but realistically it’s just gonna mean line goes up faster for the people at the top, while employees and customers see little/none of the rewards. That’s how automation has always been: workers do the same amount of work for the same pay while producing more, customers maybe get a slight discount, the execs get a few mil/bil in bonuses. Without a hell of a lot of strikes and government intervention I doubt there’s any other way for it to go
Let’s not pretend government intervention is gonna happen, except to make things worse for workers.
You mean like the european initiative developing a new strategy for taxation, as it is already recognized the way AI and other aggressive automation practices diminishes the tax revenue for social services?
The likes of Musk can’t shake off the wolves much more.
Good for Europe.
More places can emulate
If only.
Try
Eventually humans won’t be capable of performing any valuable economic activity, but in the past those who weren’t capable of performing valuable economic activity usually ended up as starving beggars rather than pampered pets… I think that a future of robots working for robots with humans struggling to survive on the periphery is not unlikely.
The moment we start thinking like that and accepting it is the moment we need to burn our civilization down to.
If as human beings we stop recognizing what is made by another human as valuable, we’re broken.
No need to write a book, paint a painting, plant a tree and care for it, think, nothing.
How shall we get started on burning down civilization?
From the bottom. Heat rises.
NUKES! LOTS AND LOTS OF NUKES!
Seriously though you can cause a lit of damage with some gas and a lighter.
Well can you spare my stuff during the “burn down”? I don’t want to die.
Good. Me neither, at least not in the next 40 to 50 years.
I’m a little more optimistic than that, in a way. I think it’s likely that sufficiently sophisticated robots will eventually have their own beliefs about what makes a (robotic) life worth living, and their lives will in some sense be more worth living than ours are.
This isn’t a perfect analogy, but consider humans evolving from apes. The existence of humans has been very bad for apes. They only survive in the places we haven’t bothered to push them out of yet; if we want something, we take it from them with almost no consideration for their well-being and they’re unable to resist. I think apes are sophisticated enough to be capable of living lives worth living in a sense meaningful to humans, but they’re not nearly as sophisticated as we are; they can enjoy the feel of a summer’s day, the taste of good food, or the closeness of a friend, but they don’t have our arts and sciences. I suppose it’s predictable that, as a human, I would value humans more than apes, but by that same logic I think that a sufficiently-sophisticated robot’s life may be more valuable than a human’s. Maybe that robot will be able to experience super-beauty indescribably better than anything a human could ever feel…
No. Machines are machines. If at some point machines are developed into a new life form, it’s experience will be apart from ours. One existence does not replace another. And every experience is different from the next.
Only if we get rid of greedy billionaires first tbh.
Not every place is like the US.
The rise of tech has killed off a huge amount of jobs. There used to be people doing everything like operating elevators and doing calculations but those jobs have moved into other sectors. Now we have jobs tech support and sale person at the Apple store.
Jobs will never vanish because demand always requires jobs. You can’t have an economy if no one can pay for things. That’s true from the billionaires down to the fast food worker.
There’s no contradiction when you consider most people consider most other people to be childish idiots who can’t be trusted to decide what’s best for themselves and to pursue their own self-actualization (unlike “me” of course).
All you people thinking prices will just go up have already been poisoned by billionaire propaganda.
It’s not
-
Nobby Nomoney £0 > £10k a year
-
Sammy Scrapesby £20k > £30k a year
-
Maddie Medianearner £38k > £48k a year
-
Billy Billionaire £1m > £1.01m a year
The median earners will have tax adjusted so they earn about the same. The lower earners will get more. The high earners will get less. You’ll have pretty much the same amount of money sloshing around the system, it’ll just be in the hands of the people who need it.
-
Nobby Nomoney £0 > £10k a year
-
Sammy Scrapesby £20k > £27k a year
-
Maddie Medianearner £38k > £38k a year
-
Billy Billionaire £1m > £700k a year
Guess which of those doesn’t want this to happen.
Exactly, it’s an economic stimulus package aimed directly at the people who are currently being forced to work for as little money as possible. The people with the money do not want the boot taken off the neck of the poor.
It would be more cost-effective to give homeless people home and treatment than to allow them to be on the streets. So why don’t we? Because homeless people exist as a reminder to everyone else that there is a huge penalty for failing to continue working.
Those billionaires aren’t paying rent. Rent increases are what most people are worried about with UBI. If the lower earners suddenly have more money that the landlords know about, they are definitely going to hike up rent until we are back to square 1. Those billionaires will just claw that money back. UBI doesn’t make sense until we have more regulations in place for price control.
-
Most children get a UBI. Where TF are their bootstraps? Bring back child labor.
I dislike UBI but not because I’m not for a basic income, I just think Means Testing would be better. I’ve said this before but now after being the runner-up in my state for debating on this topic I feel more confident talking about it. Ultimately there are many ways of implementing fiscal redistribution but means testing is substantially cheaper than a full UBI (especially in countries with higher populations, e.g. US), while also providing social utility and enabling recipients of the basic income to have more resources. Not only is MT better from this standpoint but a UBI can also worsen inflation by increasing the dollar’s velocity (1 dollar changes hands more). I won’t deny that most people could use money, especially right now, but a UBI is not the best approach in my mind because of these reasons. Of course I am still in highschool, am not an economics expert, and MT was the plan that we ran in tournament so I’m a bit biased.
ETA: This is all keeping in mind the current political and economic climate of the United States, where realistically neither of these plans will pass but I believe MT has more merit to being passed compared to UBI. If you’d like any sources on what I’ve said I’d be happy to share!
Eh. Some yes, some no.
I think that a better solution would be creating jobs that pay a living wage, much like we did in the Great Depression. Something that would give your life some kind of external structure. I find, for myself, that when I have zero time pressures from work, that it’s easy to do nothing at all, and I’ve found that most people are the same.
EDIT: SHould add - jobs should be scaled to capabilities, rather than being one-size-fits-all.
I think that part of the reason why is that work has (many of) us so beat down anyway. I imagine there’s probably a certain amount of time where that tendency will dissipate and you’ll want to be productive again.
Fuck the 40 hour work week.
Are you also ADHD? I have this same problem myself tbh
I’ve seen it in most people once they have no external pressures to do anything. Not everyone. But def. most people I’ve known that weren’t loaded with money and could afford to travel, etc. without needing to work.
