So France is starting an “experimental school uniform program” Sauce Do other countries also have that trend were conservative push for a school uniform rather than letting kids wear what they like ?
Be glad, in America, conservatives are pushing for school shootings.
Lack of uniform harms under-privileged population. School provided uniforms make everyone look more the same and there’s less differentiation based on how you dress and your ability to wear something new every day and still be fashionable. So no, it is not conservative where I am, even if some may support it for the wrong reasons.
Tldr: uniforms are an anachronism, used as means of constraining and controlling kids, and reminding them who is in charge.
Very long; reading if you like:
Using uniforms to disguise the differences between rich and poor was a post War idea that made a lot of sense in the UK. The introduction of public schools at the time brought kids together from a wide range of backgrounds just when those differences were very obvious. It all made a lot of sense. Also, English private schools had famously used uniforms as it created a certain image that they wanted. To a degree this is now true of public schools, and the “tradition” of wearing uniforms is often given as a reason to keep them.
In the UK, in 2024, there are always kids wearing uniforms that are unwashed, need repairing, or just the wrong size. But even without those signs the kids all know who is rich and who is not.
If you take kids out of their uniforms and let them wear their preferred clothes, the differences between become very hard to spot. Back in 1942 this was not true, but today you’d be hard pushed to tell who is rich and who is not making the original purpose irrelevant.
To setup a study of the impact of uniforms is logistically impossible, however all studies that look at educational outcomes found no correlation between uniform and exam results. This seems to disprove the claim that uniforms allow kids to do better in class.
Today, schools like to have uniforms for a few reasons. One, they claim it is part of the school identity, which is true to a degree. But it came about due to national hardship, and is a reminder of times we no longer need. Two, school rules on uniforms have always existed but have become more strict in recent years (speaking as a UK parent of 3 kids aged 12, 16, & 25). In the school my kids attend(ed), they will send letters home and punish kids for uniform related infractions the moment they happen. However, they don’t do the same for education related issues. It took 2 years for them to report the issues my daughter was having, and they seemed more concerned with her earnings than her school work when we spoke with them.
Dropping uniforms would reduce the load on teachers who would not need to constantly monitor and punish kids for wearing the wrong shoes, or coats, or bags, or having earrings even. There would still be some rules but they would allow far more latitude for self expression and freedom that kids in 2024 require. And this is an important point. For good or bad, modern children are exposed to information, news, behaviours, and attitudes from around the world, from a very early age. They are also going through the universal issues of adolescence. We need to accept they need freedom to express themselves, not find ways to constrain them.
On a side note, it is my own view that some schools are scared of giving kids freedom to choose, and the uniform rules are intended as a way to make them “conform” to a conservative standard. Uniform rules are effectively a stick they can smack kids with. Take it away and you take their power.
Poorer people (especially kids) tend to over-compensate with buying designer labels to hide the fact that they’re poor. This leads to worse outcomes for poorer kids who then prioritize income receiving work over their academic study to pay for these items. It also encourages dropping out of school to work and be cool by wearing the latest threads, neglecting their education for short term gain.
You can’t just assume that because kids these days will all be wearing similar styles of clothing that there is no impact in dropping mandatory uniforms from schools. At least mandatory uniforms set a standard that parents must abide by or be forced to explain themselves to authorities when it comes to providing for their children.
Funnily enough one of the things you can be sure of, is girls all want to look the same, but also be somehow better dressed than their friends. You are right that kids want expensive stuff and parents try to provide where they can. Whether this leads to bullying depends on a bunch of other factors. Kids who bully will do so either way, uniform or not.
I’m not denying bullying won’t happen however that’s different to peer pressure and the need to fit in, particularly for adolescents. Peer pressure comes from even your own friends and the choices they make independent of anything you do.
Indeed. Uniform or, not, per person will exist. I just think we are better off without uniforms, and we should always work towards “no uniform”.
School provided uniforms
Don’t exist in my experience…
Your experience may not constitute a sufficiently large and representative sample
When I was homeless as a teenager my school gave me second hand uniforms for free at least.
Not sure if it’s necessarily a ‘conservative’ thing - in the UK (and maybe elsewhere) a lot of schools have uniforms, partly as a way to engender a sense of togetherness/community and partly because if everyone is wearing the same clothing, then socioeconomic differences aren’t so visibly contrasted by some kids wearing designer gear while others can only afford the less expensive stuff.
From that point of view you could see it as being quite an egalitarian idea - although the availability of affordable uniform is still a potential issue, and it’s important that lower income households are able to get the right clothes within budget.
I’ve heard the socioeconomic differences thing many, many times, and have kids that wear uniform. But I’ve never understood that argument.
It conceals socioeconomic differences. Which in the case of economic differences, is probably not egalitarian, strictly speaking? Ditto for social “class” in the sense of whether the family is historically “monied” and has particular dress style. In the case of cultural or ethnic differences, I do not see how the egalitarian logic follows either, as freely expressing your identity is restrained.
In terms of bullying… in my experience bullies will always bully. They will just do it on your overcoat, or how old your uniform is, or your earrings, or your accent, or the colour of your hair. I don’t know, maybe the uniform helps a bit…
It conceals socioeconomic differences.
It doesnt even do that.
- Do you have the cheap generic stuff from the uniform superstore?
- The higher quality stuff from the uniform superstore?
- The fancy stuff with the school logo printed on it?
- This year’s version or last years?
- How worn is your stuff
- Is it a hand me down or second hand?
These things are actually very easy to see. But you actually dont even have to go that far. Any kinds of accessories can give you away quite quickly but the worst offenders are school uniform shoes. You have to get these from the shoe store and they come at all price points.
Bullies will always bully
Exactly
Fair points and I agree that it only conceals the differences (and as the comment below yours points out, sometimes not even that).
Uniforms certainly don’t solve society’s inequalities - really all l meant was that they could be seen as an attempt at redress (excuse the pun), which is more than I would expect from conservatives (or Conservatives).
Uniforms don’t just conceal socioeconomic diffences they level the playing field for students, particularly at a venerable age with teenagers. Without uniforms and a dress code, there is more pressure to wear trendy designer clothing every day at school. What actually gets concealed is actual poverty instead, where poorer kids will prioritise work and activities outside school to pay for these items to fit in, leading to poorer academic outcomes and prospects for their futures.
A well-designed uniform and dress code system doesn’t allow for variations in material and uniform quality as it specifies exactly what must be used and how the uniforms must look and feel. It also specifies things like accessories, makeup etc that can be worn to further even things out.
You should probably try to look at politics from a less binary point of view, you don’t want to end up like voters in the US. Also I’m not able to access the link, I just get an access denied page.
Dunno in Brazil as a whole but at least in my city, school uniforms are default. They’re simply taken for granted, not a “conservative vs. liberal” matter. Each school picks its own, but it usually boils down to a shirt, baggy pants, and a jacket (most schools cut you some slack on really cold days to swap it with a warmer one).
Where I live, it’s both parties doing it depending on the school, like mine where a shirt/tie/skirt has been the norm despite being known for being uniform-free.
I thought this was already the norm in France.
I thought this was already the norm in France.
I am not that old, but the only school I knew with uniform was the all girl catholic school in my french hometown. And I believe a few years back, even them stopped having an uniform (and even merged some classes -for the older students- with the “all boy catholic source which never had an uniform”).
So until the experiment to be started in public school, it was very rare in France
Here in spain conservative parents take their children to religious schools which already have mandatory school uniform. So it’s not in their agenda to push it to non-religious schools.
It should be notes that these religious schools are public founded. Which is another topic by itself, but you should know that we already have public funded schools with mandatory uniform.
I went to a non-uniformed elementary school (which has since adopted a uniform), a uniformed high school, and then university which was obviously non-uniformed. I much preferred the uniformed years because I don’t care one whit about fashion I never had to think about what to wear.
Granted, my high school uniform had a lot of variety, considering. There were two cuts/styles for the long sleeved shirts, a short sleeve shirt, polo shirt, knit sweater, knit vest, knit cardigan, 1/4 zip sweatshirt, and blazer, which could be mixed and matched as you liked.
I don’t remember how the conversation came about, but in a previous office job, some discussion (among us low-level employees) came about regarding an office uniform. Most people were horrified by the idea, but I was totally for it.
Probably (definitely) an American thing, but I’m gonna wear jeans and a tshirt or you can fuck right off. What are they going to do if you show up that way? Make you leave? Good by me. Yall suck anyway.
Not in Canada. I know some schools have uniforms in Québec but no federal politicians talk about uniforms
The UK has rocked uniforms for quite a while I believe. It’s not political. It just identifies you as a pupil of a specific school. Anyone who skips school needs to carry a change of clothes to avoid being - potentially - busted.
It also stops pupils from being singled out for not being able to afford expensive clothing, apparently.
I went to school with a girl who never wore the same outfit ever until like her junior or senior year when she got in trouble for something and got cut off. The word was she said something like “What am I going to do!?!?”
That’s far more fucked to and sick than just having kids wear a uniform. Granted most kids aren’t rich enough to have that situation even happen but still.
Yes, I believe that’s true. With the exception of the make of your shoes and whatever (non uniform) coat you might wear everybody looks about the same. Almost like all children are equal…
We had this in Poland but it was a one year deal from an actual fascist who resurrected a fascist org here
Here in Australia school uniforms are compulsory for public (gov run) primary and high schools, and usually in private schools. Students wear a uniform to school from age 5 to 18. They are thought to place everyone, rich and poor, on the same level. They are definitely not political. How odd to think what a 10 year old wears to school is a political statement!
How odd to think what a 10 year old wears to school is a political statement!
It is in America. But then again, you guys are a century or two ahead of us.
Is the cost of the uniforms on the students or institutions?
The public school uniforms are heavily subsidised and students parents tend to buy them for them. If a family member cannot afford one, for whatever reason, they can have a confidential meeting with a yearmaster and the school will buy it for them (it’s the same uniform, the school just sends someone out to the uniform shop to buy a uniform of the correct size), but that rarely happens, as it is cheaper than buying the kid a shirt and shorts that aren’t a uniform. A lot of kids just live in their uniform weekdays, as they’re cheap hard-wearing clothes the parents don’t have to pay as much for.
No idea about private schools, but they’re probably richer families, I guess.
That is better, I just had some flashbacks to my highschool that had some kids only having one outfit/hammydowns that had small tears and such, which ostracized them a bit
