• kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    6112·
    13 天前

    Germany is the second largest provider of weapons to Israel, and a huge longtime consumer of Russian gas, this is a tonedeaf as hell meme.

        • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
          4·
          13 天前

          That DE40 has not been going up since the terrorist act by the US of blowing up NS2 and the ‘sanctions’ on themselves making them buy wildly expensive fracking gas from the US.
          EU can’t compete and their economy is dying.
          BASF, Thyssen-Krupp,etc… all closing down shop and reorganising.
          A nice fertile ground for creating more AfD fascists, exactly the same as in the 1930’s.
          And again the prospect of getting trashed on the eastern front just like their opa’s.

        • cows_are_underrated@feddit.org
          91·
          13 天前

          Please dont mistake the German government for the entirety of Germany. I would say, that the support for Israel has massively decreased, due to their genocide. Our government however, does not fucking care.

  • febra@lemmy.world
    505·
    13 天前

    Except Germany keeps delivering weapons to Israel, gives them diplomatic and political coverage, and apparently even has planes in the air to support Israeli fighter jets in their attacks on Iran.

    • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
      1134·
      13 天前

      you think WW3 is starting because of Israel? Can I also get under the rock your been living under, must be nice there.

      • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
        114·
        12 天前

        Israel is not only at the very center of the world (look at maps: it’s very much the geographic center. That’s why we call it middle east.)

        it’s also reckless and like a dying star, a supernova. it blows up without regards to casualties. it is a very dangerous situation that we’re in indeed.

        • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
          57·
          12 天前

          I dont see the potential for global conflict.

          Israel and Iran have been trading blows for decades now. Some direct, many indirect. It’s a regional conflict, and regional it will remain.

          Every now and then, Israel acts to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power – and honestly, we’re all the better for it, the world does not need another set of religious crazies to have nukes.

          (That being said, is Netanyahu a deplorable asshat? Absolutely yes – but for different reasons)

          • WoodScientist@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            101·
            12 天前

            Every now and then, Israel acts to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power – and honestly, we’re all the better for it, the world does not need another set of religious crazies to have nukes.

            At this point, I would be fine with Iran having the bomb. I really don’t see any evidence that they would behave more recklessly with it than Israel does.

            • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
              22·
              12 天前

              cue Oprah

              YOU GET THE BOMB, YOU GET THE BOMB, YOU GET THE BOMB, EVERYONE GETS THE BOMB!

              Them not behaving more recklessly than Israel is unfortunately not a high bar; which given their past actions I’m not sure they’d pass. I’d like to err on the side of caution here.

              • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
                42·
                12 天前

                Iran has a right to self defense. Them getting the bomb is the side of caution here. Otherwise they will keep being attacked by Israel and it’s allies

                • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
                  1·
                  11 天前

                  for starters, If you’d like to immerse yourself into the system of Middle Eastern clients and proxies, you will have an especially fun and long day going through the rather noxious minions of Iran.

          • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
            63·
            12 天前

            “have been trading blows for decades now. Some direct, many indirect. It’s a regional conflict, and regional it will remain.”

            Lol, this sounds like a quote from someone in 1914 being catastrophicly wrong.

            Every now and then, Israel acts to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power – and honestly, we’re all the better for it, the world does not need another set of religious crazies to have nukes.

            But apparently we do need religious crazies who already have nukes, are in the middle of a massive genocide, are attacking and occupying multiple other countries, and have ambitions of conquering the whole middle east, to act as World Police?

            You’re literally endorsing war crimes.

            Netanyahu a deplorable asshat

            By “deplorable asshat”, you mean the fascist leader of a genocidal ethnostate currently launching multiple wars of aggression.

            • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
              1·
              11 天前

              Lol, this sounds like a quote from someone in 1914 being catastrophicly wrong.

              …or from someone describing one of the scores of conflicts since where “regional” has been a fitting description

          • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
            31·
            12 天前

            fair

            i guess most western maps are arranged in such a way that the middle east is in the center and the atlantic is on the map completely because

            1. the atlantic has probably been more important historically than the pacific, as europeans sailed over the atlantic, not the pacific.

            2. the pacific ocean is a bigger body of water, so having it on the “back” side of the globe makes sense because this way, you have a more uninteresting back-side of the globe and a more interesting front-side.

            • Flipper@feddit.org
              2·
              12 天前

              No, they are not. I really suggest you look at an European map. Algeria/Mali are in the center of the map, depending on how much Antarctica is included.

              Maps are normally centered roughly around the region you buy them in. European maps are centered on the 0 meridian, because it fits so nicely while keeping the European countries around the center. The 0 meridian was just defined by the Brits as going through Greenwich.

              The bottom is cut of more, because Antarctica is less interesting than Canada, Greenland and Siberia.

      • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
        172·
        12 天前

        Israel is a prominent member of the global western capitalistic hegemony, and they are escalating tensions with their genocide and attack on Iran. I wouldn’t say they’re the only ones responsible, but they do share a large portion of the blame.

  • Lord Wiggle@lemmy.world
    944·
    13 天前

    Germany is Europe’s biggest supporter of Israel.

    The biggest issue is that we, the EU, are on the side of Germany now. And their track record with world wars isn’t great.

    • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
      411·
      13 天前

      To be fair to the Germans, I can understand how the Holocaust is integrated into them as a kind of “original sin”. What was done to the Jews under the Nazis was so unspeakable terrible, and German society as a whole has done an enormous job at ingraining in themselves that nothing of the sort should ever repeat itself.

      The problem is that “nothing of the sort” has translated into “opposing Jews in any way”. It seems to me like Germany sees itself as bound to support Jews (and thereby the Jewish state Israel) no matter what in order to “atone for their sins”, and I can understand that. However, right now, Israel is suddenly the state committing the closest thing we’ve seen to the Holocaust since the actual Holocaust. It’s very hard for Germany to oppose Israel without tickling a part of their history that they’ve done a laudable job at condemning.

      What Germany needs now, is to separate their history from their current politics. I understand that it’s difficult, and I don’t have an answer to how it should be done, but it needs to happen, lest the same crimes are committed again.

      • Saleh@feddit.org
        102·
        13 天前

        Germany doesnt care about Jews. The moment Jews are not fitting the box Germany designed for them by not blindly supporting Israel, those Jews are facing the same repressions like anyone else who challenges Germanies blind support for Israel.

        German politics, media and parts of civil society think that blind support of Israel is serving certain interests of Germany and they do it purely for these reasons. In particular we see it being used to justify racist discrimination against Arabs and other “brown” people and to crack down with increasing authoritarianism on leftist and ecological political positions.

        Like Israeli society they have deluded themselves into thinking that they know better than everyone else in the world what is right and wrong and fail to see, how this actually harms Germany tremendously.

      • p3n@lemmy.world
        282·
        13 天前

        Israel is suddenly the state committing the closest thing we’ve seen to the Holocaust since the actual Holocaust.

        I don’t say this to excuse anything Israel is doing, but this is gross recency bias that is glossing over numerous genocides that have occurred since the Holocaust, including:

        Not technically genocides, but also worth mentioning in the same vein:

        So ya, other than those events, this is the closest thing to the Holocaust since the actual Holocaust.

        • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
          92·
          13 天前

          It’s laudable of you to bring attention to these other atrocities. Without creating a “race to the bottom” regarding what was worse, I still want to point out that the horror of the Holocaust was not only in the number of killed.

          I’m aware of a couple of the atrocities you mentioned, but as far as I’m aware, they don’t carry the clinical state-sponsored efficiency that is a hallmark of the Holocaust. When I compare Gaza today to the holocaust, that’s what I’m comparing, rather than the number of killed. It’s about the way Isreal has decided to wipe out the population of Gaza, and systematically does so completely unhindered.

          • p3n@lemmy.world
            6·
            12 天前

            To be clear, aside from the part I quoted, I agreed with everything else in your post and thought it was an interesting take, but again I have to take issue with this:

            as far as I’m aware, they don’t carry the clinical state-sponsored efficiency that is a hallmark of the Holocaust.

            I’m not going to analyze every single atrocity since 1945, but the Cambodian genocide was certainly state-sponsored, efficient, and horrific:

            “20,000 people passed through the Security Prison 21, one of the 196 prisons the Khmer Rouge operated,[4][28] and only seven adults survived.[29]”

            "The executed were buried in mass graves. In order to save ammunition, the executions were often carried out using poison or improvised weapons such as sharpened bamboo sticks, hammers, machetes and axes.[6] … In some cases the children and infants of adult victims were killed by having their heads bashed against the trunks of Chankiri trees, and then were thrown into the pits alongside their parents. The rationale was “to stop them growing up and taking revenge for their parents’ deaths.”

            “People were imprisoned and tortured merely on suspicion of opposing the regime or because other prisoners gave their names under torture. Whole families (including women and children) ended up in prisons and were tortured because the Khmer Rouge feared that if they did not do this, their intended victims’ relatives would seek revenge. Pol Pot said, “if you want to kill the grass, you also have to kill the roots”.[169]”

            "There are many accounts of torture in both the Security Prison 21 records and the documents of the trial; as told by the survivor Bou Meng in his book (written by Huy Vannak), tortures were so atrocious and heinous that the prisoners tried in every way to commit suicide, even using spoons, and their hands were constantly tied behind their back to prevent them from committing suicide "

            “all medical experiments were systematically conducted without proper anesthetics.[173] A medic who worked inside S-21 said that a 17-year-old girl had her throat slit and her abdomen pierced before being beaten and put into water for an entire night. This procedure was repeated many times and carried out without anesthetics.[174] In a hospital of Kampong Cham province, child medics cut out the intestines of a living non-consenting person and joined their ends to study the healing process. The patient died after three days due to the “operation”.[173]”

            “Twenty-six-year-old John D. Dewhirst, a British tourist, was one of the youngest foreigners to die in the prison.[17] He was sailing with his New Zealand companion, Kerry Hamill, and their Canadian friend Stuart Glass when their boat drifted into Cambodian territory and was intercepted by Khmer patrol boats on August 13, 1978. Glass was killed during the arrest, while Dewhirst and Hamill were captured, blindfolded, and taken to shore. Both were executed after having been tortured for several months at Tuol Sleng. Witnesses reported that a foreigner was burned alive; initially, it was suggested that this might have been John Dewhirst, but a survivor would later identify Kerry Hamill as the victim of this particular act of brutality.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuol_Sleng_Genocide_Museum

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields

      • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
        12·
        13 天前

        The Nazis were just as brutal to Russians as they were to Jews, and yet modern Germany has no trouble understanding it shouldn’t support Russia today. The “holocaust guilt” excuse for supporting Israel seems like an excuse

        • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
          2·
          13 天前

          It’s absolutely true that the Holocaust hit several groups with the same brutality as the Jews (Slavs, Romani, Gays, etc.). However when the Holocaust is taught about, it’s usually with a strong focus on Jews and antisemitism. Additionally, Russia has been built up as an adversary throughout the past 50-70 years. With that in mind, I don’t see it as strange that the “Holocaust guilt” is centred around Jews, and that Germany finds it easier to oppose Russia than Isreal.

      • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
        4·
        12 天前

        To be fair to the Germans, I can understand how the Holocaust is integrated into them as a kind of “original sin”. What was done to the Jews under the Nazis was so unspeakable terrible, and German society as a whole has done an enormous job at ingraining in themselves that nothing of the sort should ever repeat itself.

        The problem with Germany is that they learned the wrong lesson out of WW2.

        Instead of learning “genocide is bad”, it’s “Jews are always on the right side of history”. And that’s why Germany is completely uncritically supporting Israel with everything that it does.

      • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.comEnglish
        23·
        12 天前

        What was done to the Jews under the Nazis was so unspeakable terrible, and German society as a whole has done an enormous job at ingraining in themselves that nothing of the sort should ever repeat itself

        Nazi Germany also murdered more than 10 million Russians, both civilians and soldiers, and had a literal genocidal plan against slavic peoples (Generalplan Ost), and yet they don’t support the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Almost as if the whole “holocaust shame” thing was a myth, and it was used to manufacture consent towards Israel’s genocide of Palestinians.

        • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
          1·
          12 天前

          As mentioned in one of my other comments: Yes, the Holocaust targeted other groups than Jews (Slavs, Romani, Gays, etc.). However, in learning about the Holocaust, there is usually a strong focus on Jews. In short, most people learn a lot about how Jews were targeted, and a lot of memorials and media focus on Jewish prosecution by the nazis.

          At the same time, Russia has been built up as an adversary since the beginning of the Cold War, and committed plenty of their own atrocities before, during, and after WWII. The same cannot be said about Romani, Gays, Jews, or other groups targeted during the Holocaust.

          With all this in mind, it’s not very hard to understand why “Holocaust guilt” is centered on Jews more than other groups, and why Russians are largely exempt from the feeling altogether. I’m not saying that’s fair or right, I’m saying it’s very understandable.

          On the other hand: I really don’t see any motive from Germanys side to support genocide on Palestinians. So my argument is essentially trying to understand why Germany would support Isreal despite <waves at Israel in general>. The only good explanation I’ve found is centred on “Holocaust guilt”, and the way it’s been portrayed and conveyed the past eighty years.

          • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.comEnglish
            13·
            12 天前

            I understand your explanation, I just think it’s more believable that holocaust remembrance is most often focused on those who stand on the side of NATO

            trying to understand why Germany would support Isreal despite <waves at Israel in general>

            The overwhelming media directive of being pro-pissrael is in my opinion the more likely reason

            • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
              1·
              11 天前

              I think the overwhelming media directive (…)

              I don’t follow German media much, so I can’t comment on that. The media in Norway is typically pro-Palestinine. The pro-Isreal pieces that are published are usually debate pieces written by fringe politicians or pieces written by Isrealian officials.

      • Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        1·
        13 天前

        They could’ve gone down the Humanist route of “Never again shall this be allowed to happen to anyone”, making it about the victims and their human suffering rather than their race, but instead they chose to make it about Race, keeping the way of seeing other human beings from before, just with different untermenschen and ubermenschen.

        The visual artifacts of NAZIsm might have been forbidden, but the whole judging and treating people differently depending on their race is a strong as ever.

        Their continued support for Israel whilst they’re trying to commit a new Holocaust, shows that Racism as a way of viewing and relating to others in Germany is as strong today as it was in the 1930s.

      • Iceman@lemmy.worldEnglish
        138·
        13 天前

        The problem is that Germans now just look generally pro-genocidal.

        • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
          241·
          13 天前

          This is a classic problem of going into one ditch, then oversteering and hitting the opposite ditch.

          Germany has worked so hard on “The Holocaust was terrible, we will forever support the Jews to make up for it” that they’re now supporting a genocidal Jewish state.

          My point is that I understand why this is hard for them. For them to oppose Israel invokes some associations that they really want to keep far away. However, now, supporting Israel invokes the same associations. This puts them in a kind of catch-22 situation, where no matter what they do, they’re invoking associations to the Nazis.

          To be clear: I think the only right thing to do now is to oppose Israel. I just understand why that is exceptionally hard for Germany.

          • Iceman@lemmy.worldEnglish
            4·
            13 天前

            Well put! It’s a shame that they put all focus on supporting their primary victim and so little on never again allowing their actions. Their word would weigh heavy thou if they ever stepped on that land mine.

            • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
              21·
              13 天前

              You’re wilfully ignoring the historical context that makes it hard for Germany to oppose Israel. By doing so, you’re not helping anyone.

                • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
                  11·
                  13 天前

                  Don’t you see that if you want to effect change, it helps to understand why Germany is doing what they’re doing now?

                  I have no idea what brings the ICC into this, I’m not aware of cases against any other country than Isreal here.

                  By the way, how does trying to understand why people are doing what they do make me an asshole? I’m trying to be civil here, and I think you’re being very impolite.

              • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
                12·
                13 天前

                If that were the reason, Germany would also have trouble opposing Russia. Yet they don’t.

    • wpb@lemmy.world
      83·
      13 天前

      Not every jew is a zionist. Don’t conflate the two. Israel does not have a right to exist, and jews do.

      • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
        23·
        12 天前

        You want to force Jews into the diaspora again? Brilliant move, that worked so well for them the first time around. /s

        • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.comEnglish
          23·
          12 天前

          You want to force Jews into the diaspora again?

          So, the only alternative to diaspora is an apartheid ethnostate in occupied land?

          • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
            1·
            11 天前

            of course not. the alternative should be a free and open society where Jews are but one of many groups.

            Israel is currently sliding away from this - sadly - but it still has the potential

            • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.comEnglish
              23·
              11 天前

              Israel is currently sliding away from this

              It’s not. It’s the very conception of the state of Israel. It was funded through the Naqba, a forcible relocation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. The very idea of the modern state of Israel is genocidal and an apartheid ethnostate

              • Fusselwurm@feddit.org
                1·
                11 天前

                would you also claim the same for the United States? Their original sin is even darker, as most natives did not move away but simply died.

                Iriginal sin is not necessarily destiny.

                • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.comEnglish
                  33·
                  11 天前

                  Hitler famously inspired his Lebensraum theory in the US example and the Manifest Destiny doctrine. The US successfully genocided almost the entirety of native Americans. So yes, I would make a similar claim for the USA

  • Wispy2891@lemmy.world
    175·
    13 天前

    Well if they didn’t genocide all those millions of innocent Jews 80 years ago, western countries wouldn’t accept the invasion and genocide in Palestine over the last decades

  • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.com
    81·
    12 天前

    Last time, germany at least had the guts to spearhead the reich. This time they’re just a bootlicker, following their imperialist friends.

  • benjaminb@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    143·
    13 天前

    Germans when they realise WW2 was caused by an man from Austria

    Germans when they realise WW1 was caused by the assassination of the archduke of Austria and the subsequent declaration of war from Austria-Hungary on Serbia.

    You could say Austria is responsible, but Hitler was in Germany, so WW2 is kinda our problem…

    • Uranus_Hz@lemm.eeEnglish
      2·
      12 天前

      Also, the State of Israel was created right after, and as a direct response, to WWII.

      • mathemachristian [he/him]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        1·
        12 天前

        No it wasn’t, settlers had been moving into palestine since the late 1800s. The zionists utilised the persecutions of jews in europe to get bodies to staff the frontier sure, but that had also been an established MO since Herzl. The creation of Israel coincides more with the US taking charge of europes colonies and settler projects. Which is why the Lehi and Irgun had to do the terror attacks on the UK in order to establish themselves as a country. They pledged their allegiance to the new white overlord and got rewarded with statehood for it.

      • benjaminb@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
        21·
        12 天前

        I know you’re being sarcastic. Although I tried to say that WW2 is “our” fault (Germany caused it). But as I read my last sentence again, I do see it’s weirdly written.

        Anyway, I am just frustrated that we (Germans) are apologizing forever, paying other countries huge amounts of money, etc. Yes, it was very very bad what happened during that time, but we weren’t the only ones doing bad shit! The “great and free” land of the fucking USA is (TO THIS DAY) the ONLY state, that has ever dropped a nuclear weapon on another country. Or have they apologized to Vietnam? To the hundreds (if not thousands) of victims to the crimes of the CIA? Have they apologized for Project MKUltra? Or the Tuskegee Syphilis Study? I could go on, but it’s already a pretty good list… Now, did the US do anything to apologize, pay compensation or anything? NO! They tried to hide it. Just like communists in China or Russia or the former USSR. And whose the biggest enemy of the US? THE FUCKING COMMUNISTS! (I am not a communist by the way, I just wanted to point out the irony.) Furthermore: China, Russia, USSR, etc. have been spying their people. Guess who is spying (not only US Citizens): the motherfucking NSA! Like with the Intel ME ( Great Video from Mental Outlaw btw ). Or EternalBlue, which the NSA exploited for years and not telling Microsoft to fix it…

        Sorry, this hatred has been building up in me the last several months. But I am not hating the citizens, they (systematically) don’t receive education, it’s not their fault.

        • WoodScientist@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          11 天前

          You’re reading way too much into this. My comment was simply a joke. An absurdity. Someone so mad about being blamed for wars they go and start a war over it.

          • benjaminb@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
            2·
            11 天前

            You’re actually right - I do spend way too much time with this.

            And yes, I kinda got lost in finally having some valve open to let out my built up pressure, sorry it was you.

    • Nangijala@feddit.dk
      3·
      13 天前

      That’s not how you spell Australians and last I checked they didn’t start any world wars.

      …

      …

      …

      …

      /s

    • entwine413@lemm.ee
      17·
      13 天前

      While Hitler was Austrian, Germans carried out the orders.

      But honestly, the 1918 influenza was largely responsible for WWII, because the people who would have prevented Germany from getting ass fucked in the Treaty of Versailles were sick and didn’t attend.

      • Taleya@aussie.zoneEnglish
        2·
        13 天前

        I mean if you wanted to peg a nation state, Austria-Hungary were the ones who declared and set off all the other connected traps

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
          2·
          13 天前

          Pretty sure nobody was fighting before the Germans attacked Eben emael with gliders.

          That’s the wrong war. Fort Eben Emael wasn’t even constructed yet, and there were no paratroopers on any side.

          Franz Ferdinand was assassinated on June 28th, 1914. On July 28th, Austria-Hungary began shelling Belgrade, in the first shots of the war. Germany occupied Luxembourg August 2nd and invaded Belgium August 4th.

          But regardless, the European powers were always going to end up fighting each other after running out of places to colonize, building up enormous militaries, and forming a bunch of secret alliances. No nation was the “good guys” in WWI, they were a bunch of imperialist colonial states jockeying for power, and sending ordinary people into awful conditions to die for no good reason.

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
              11·
              13 天前

              I can understand that perspective, but I’m looking at things from more of a class based and realpolitik perspective. The international order, I would say even now, but especially at that time of peak colonialism, was pretty much like this.

              The Allied powers dominated the world, and they achieved that through force, brazen, unapologetic aggression. Germany didn’t have a problem with that, except for the part where they weren’t the ones on top, that they didn’t have colonies to exploit like everyone else.

              From my perspective, the real problem is that socialists at the time didn’t follow through on the Basel declaration of 1912 where socialists of every country promised to oppose the coming war. When the war actually broke out, everyone rallied around their respective flags, the British and French socialists talked about Germany invading neutral countries and not being as democratic, but the German socialists justified it by talking about serfdom in Russia and the colonialism of Britain and France, and at the end of the day, tons of regular people got drafted to go die in the trenches over these power games.

              Admittedly, I’ve never really considered it from a Belgian perspective before, but I think the bigger nations were all more motivated by power than by a genuine commitment to upholding neutrality and national sovereignty.

    • entwine413@lemm.ee
      75·
      13 天前

      So it was the Austrian military, not the German military? I guess they should update the history books.

      • Owl@mander.xyz
        101·
        13 天前

        WWI: Franz Ferdinad of Austria gets assasinated —> Austria-Hungary starts WWI

        WWII: A famous Austrian failed painter wasn’t happy about the outcome of WWI

        And the initial post doesn’t mention any “military”