- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Four months ago, we asked Are LLMs making Stack Overflow irrelevant? Data at the time suggested that the answer is likely “yes:”
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Make no mistake. LLMs aren’t killing stackoverflow. LLMs just arrived to finish it off. The stuff that was killing it are the regular posters there, and their passive aggressive bullshit
Question closed as off-topic.
Question closed as off-topic.
Removed as duplicate of #264826376: “Question closed as duplicate.”
Sometimes my jokes need explaining...
I’m pointing out that questions on SO too often get closed as duplicates of adjacent (but distinctly different) questions, and I did so in the most confusing, recursive way possible.
Nothing passive about them it was just regular aggressive. Made my programming coursework so much worse. Indian guys on YouTube however, now those guys were helpful!
I never asked a question, despite using it daily. Too afraid of being berated 😅
Yup. I once decided to spend an afternoon answering questions on a framework I was expert in, as a kind of profile-building exercise to help with job hunting, and after around the third smug self-satisfied comment picking me up on some piece of irrelevant bullshit I deleted my account.
I hate how cathartic it is to watch that mountain of bullies burn to the ground 😌
Not terribly surprising, Google would often direct me to StackOverflow threads as I was googling for an answer to a question. And as often as not, either the question was closed; or, instead of anyone providing an answer, the commenters would spiral off into questioning everything about the original question asker’s life choices. While I do get the whole XY Problem, this sort of thing seemed to be over-used on SO.
Granted, I don’t know if AI answers are any better. Sure, they can answer a lot of the simple questions, but I’ve not seen them be useful on hard, more obscure questions. Probably because those questions don’t have ready answers on SO.
the whole XY Problem
lol. I hate this. Just answer the damn question or don’t. I’m not asking you to validate if what I’m doing is weird or not. It’s weird! I know! That’s none of your business. Just answer the damn question or don’t. Simple as.
Not necessarily directly, many people may have abandoned learning programming because of LLMs, rather than Stack Overflow specifically.
I don’t think such trend would be so big. And anyone who has used any LLM for programming learns very quickly that those are very far from replacing anyone
People who know programming already, yes. People who are getting into it / want to get into it, see it as an amazing shortcut.
I had two working students already, who thought and communicated that they don’t really need to learn programming, because they can do it with ChatGPT / Q. It was quite infuriating.
For real. You can tell how good a programmer someone is, by how good they think an LLM is at programming.
I use it to bounce ideas around with or get it to direct me in the right direction if I am stumped for further research, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I have it write more than the most gruntiest of grunt boilerplate code. It just can’t do it to a useful standard without a lot of oversight.
Same, it’s largely doing pretty much as the article implies, replacing StackOverflow for when I need the correct runes to do something specific.
You’re pulling this out of your ass. That is completely made up.
Anyone remember experts-exchange?
I remember when it didn’t have a dash. Until people started making fun of the old URL…
So easily avoided too
Ah yes, the place that never answered anything.
The sloppiest of slops before we got AI slop.
It was the pinterest of answering stuff
I used it in earnest! (to write shitty VB scripts and PHP websites)
Or if they had an answer, they paywalled it, until Google got pissed at them for including the answer in their SEO but blocking it once the user clicked through. Then they maliciously complied with Google’s demand to not censor by burying the answer under layers upon layers of ads and other “related” questions.
I was so glad to see SO eat their lunch.
Ever ask a question on SO? I tell my students to search there but never, ever ask a question. The unmitigated hostility is not what new developers need or deserve. ChatGPT won’t humiliate you for asking a question that someone else has already asked.
Problem being that someone else asked the question 10 years ago and the answer is now irrelevant due to version changes. People with high scores are just early adopters who answered all of the easy questions. Hostile users generally can’t understand the question. The issue with llms answering your question is that they are going to be stuck in the current time period. In the future their answers will also be irrelevant due to version changes.
I mean that is already a problem, if you ask a question you have to be ready for the answer to be a mismatch of version conflicts.
But that is ok. ChatGPT is a tool that can either help you or hurt you. I like to think of it like a power hammer. If you are doing a roofing job, it can help you get things done faster compared to a manual hammer, but you still need to know how to build a roof to get started.
ChatGPT is great at helping you organize your thoughts or finding an answer to some error message buried in some log file, but you still need to know what questions to ask and you need to be ready for it to give you a stupid answer and how to get around that.
Earlier today I googled how to toggle full screen in dosbox-x and the AI-generated answer said to use alt+enter. Tried it and it didn’t work, so I look in the documentation and it turns out that they changed it to F12+f a while ago (probably to avoid interfering with actual dos input).
This is definitely already a problem.
Every LLM is shit at dealing with version changes. They don’t understand it as a concept, despite all their training data.
I’ve asked questions on S.O. I’ve answered some too.
What I’ve found works well on s-o is
- Researching a bit first
- Asking a question properly*
- Including that search attempt to prove you’ve done some due-diligence
I’ve found even a dick like me can get a lot of leeway by showing I’ve put in the effort and asked properly.
*Same as Usenet
Said the same thing
is giving marked-as-duplicate vibes
I see this hot take often, and it isn’t entirely without merit, but it is mitigated by moderation; in some Stack communities better than others. I’ve been an active member for many years, and in my view it goes like this.
If you contribute a question without reading the rules and How to Ask a Good Question, you don’t provide minimal reproducible steps with code, post images of code, etc. you may get flamed out of town. And that may feel bad and it may be mean if the questioner didn’t know to read those. But they are there for you.
If, however, you ask a thoughtful question, give examples, show what you’ve tried, etc. you definitely can get quality, courteous help.
Doesn’t change that video killed the radio star here. The show is over.
Beginners are the least likely to ask thoughtful questions. We include slides in lectures about how to ask a question, but when there’s an assignment deadline and you’re inexperienced, it’s more likely you’re going to just blurt out “help me!” rather than provide a detailed explanation that doesn’t require repeated prompting. It takes time to learn how to work through an issue yourself before asking. Students are often facing time pressure and that can drive bad behavior. Correcting them is important, just don’t do it in a way that crushes their spirit.
100% understood and agreed. I don’t want to defend the bad behavior. It is out there among questioners and in the experienced community alike. Just saying it is possible to find quality help there.
For me, strict rules are what make this website useful. No threads named “help me” is why I like reading it.
For newcomers there is https://stackoverflow.com/staging-ground
Even for non newcomers, having threads marked as duplicates for problems introduced by version changes that aren’t considered in the original question/answers is a major issue.
If LLMs just copied stack overflow they’d respond to every question with “Closed as duplicate. Question already answered.”
and link a slightly similar question, which’s answers can’t be used in your case, because of the small difference. also, it’s outdated since four years.
or 13 in case of python questions, and they are about python2
ChatGPT won’t humiliate you for asking a question that someone else has already asked.
I don’t know, being told what a good question that was and what a good boy I am everytime I ask a stupid question feels pretty humiliating.
(Still better than SO)
That’s a pretty recent development, isn’t it? I remember ChatGPT being a lot more matter of factly earlier on.
Yep, old ChatGPT was much more blunt and factual.
Don’t really like the recent trend of every LLM talking to me like I’m in kindergarten.
I forget where I heard the quote, but:
Stack Overflow is a great place to find answers. Stack Overflow is a terrible place to ask questions.
Their moderation approach is a big part of why it’s a great place to search for answers.
But if it results in edge issues that’re similar to another problem but not to the point of having the same solution being closed for being a duplicate, is it really helpful to the overall quality of the answers on Stack Overflow?
That’s why I only post questions for bleeding-edge languages and code libraries. I have to answer them myself.
I’ve never had an issue asking a question on stack overflow.
I’d wager a lot of ‘you people’ that have issues with it probably didn’t do enough research on your own.
There’s issues on both sides. A lot of people who ask questions are clearly just asking others to do their homework or otherwise haven’t made any effort, but there are also a lot of people who are unnecessarily hostile.
I definitely agree with this. I think the easier and kinder thing to do is to just not reply to posts like that.
So here’s what I don’t get. LLMs were trained on data from places like SO. SO starts losing users ,and thus content. Content that LLMs ingest to stay relevant.
So where will LLMs get their content after a certain point? Especially for new things that may come out or unique situations. It’s not like it’ll scrape the answer from a web page if people are just asking LLMs.
The snake eats its tail and it all degenerates into slop. Happy coding!
This is an area where synthetic data can be useful. For example, you could scrape the documentation and source code for a Python library and then use an existing LLM to generate questions and answers about the content to train future coding assistants on. As long as the training data gets well curated for quality it’s perfectly useful for this kind of thing, no need for an actual forum.
AI companies have a lot of clever people working for them, they’re aware of these problems.
You’ll never be able to capture every source of questions that humans might have in LLM training data.
That’s the neat thing, you don’t.
LLM training is primarily about getting the LLM to understand concepts. When you need it to be factual, or are working with it to solve novel problems, you can put a bunch of relevant information into the LLM’s context and it can use that even if it wasn’t explicitly trained on it. It’s called RAG, retrieval-augmented generation. Most of the general-purpose LLMs on the net these days do that, when you ask Copilot or Gemini about stuff it’ll often have footnotes in the response that point to the stuff that it searched up in the background and used as context.
So for a future Stack Overflow LLM replacement, I’d expect the LLM to be backed up by being able to search through relevant documentation and source code.
Even then the summarizer often fails or bring up the wrong thing 🤷
You’ll still have trouble comparing changes if it needs to look at multiple versions, etc. Especially parsing changelogs and comparing that to specific version numbers, etc
How does this play out when you hold a human contributor to the same standards? They also often fail to summarize information accurately or bring up the wrong thing. Lots of answers on Stack Overflow are just plain wrong, or focus on the wrong thing, or don’t reference the correct sources (when they reference anything at all). The most common criticism of Stack Overflow I’m seeing is how its human contributors direct people to other threads and declare that the question is “already answered” there when it isn’t really.
LLMs can do a decent job. And right now they are as bad as they’re ever going to be.
Well trained humans are still more consistent and more predictable and easier to teach.
There’s no guarantee LLM will get reliably better at everything. It still makes some mistakes today that it did when introduced and nobody knows how to fix that yet
You’re still setting a high standard here. What counts as a “well trained” human and how many SO commenters count as that? Also “easier to teach” is complicated. It takes decades for a human to become well trained, an LLM can be trained in weeks. And an individual computer that’ll be running the LLM is “trained” in minutes, it just needs to load the model into memory. Once you have an LLM you can run as many instances of it as you want to spend money on.
There’s no guarantee LLM will get reliably better at everything
Never said they would. I said they’re as bad as they’re ever going to be, which allows for the possibility that they don’t get any better.
Even if they don’t, though, they’re still good enough to have killed Stack Overflow.
It still makes some mistakes today that it did when introduced and nobody knows how to fix that yet
And humans also make mistakes. Do we know how to fix that yet?
This is already a problem for LLMs now
You are assuming that people act in logical ways.
This is only a problem right now if you think about it.
deleted by creator
Same question applies to all the other websites out there being mined to train LLMs. Google search Overviews removes the need for people to visit linked sites. Traffic plummets. Ads dry up, and the sites go out of business. No new content to train on 🤷🏻♂️
The need for the service that SO provided won’t go away. Eventually people will migrate to new places to discuss. LLM creators will either constantly scrape those as well, forcing them to implement more and more countermeasures and GenAI-poison, or the services themselves will enshittify and sell our content (i.e. the commons) to LLM-creators.
I worry that the replacement is more likely a move to platforms like Discord. I mean it’s already happened in a lot of projects.
Discord is terrible for this.
I hate Discord with a passion. Trying to get everyone I know away from it.
Yes, it’s what I was referring to in the second part.
I’ve never been accused of being a smart man.
If they move to Discord, nobody will ever be able to find the answers. They must use a website that is indexable by search engines or it will be pointless.
Yeah. But this already happens, unfortunately.
They’re probably hoping to use people’s submitted code for training. But that seems like it will be diminishing returns
Documentation will carry it a bit but yeah, it’ll be an issue
Because we all know how perfect documentation is. 😂
Fair point lol
Even without LLMs, it’s possible StackOverflow would have eventually faded into irrelevance
Yeah, exactly. A lot of groups have a Discord :( or other forums where people ask questions. I know I’ve had to ask questions on Svelte’s Discord :( for example. And I think even once on some YouTube influencer’s Slack…
Sucks cuz both of those places are silos and my questions and answers are forever lost.
It’s not like discord is any better than SO. It’s a closed platform, often with no read access if you don’t want to register, and it’s not searchable in the slightest.
I would take SO any day over discord.
Yep. 200% agree. I still post questions on SO, but when I don’t get any answers, then I have to go to Discord… :(
Can people access to discord from corporate networks? I’m fucked if the Google answer gave me reddit or github as the answers because they’re blocked.
Github is blocked for you? Bruh
I had to open a ticket for them to unblock the python pep pages! I was trying to teach my intern the pep-8 and didn’t had access. Fucking crazy.
How does that even get on a blocklist 😭
Don’t want the slaves reading the GPL and getting ideas.
I don’t know, but for reddit you may try one of the redlib instances, and gothub for github. I don’t think discord has such frontends
Projects that use Discord for support piss me right off. What a stupid way to keep answering the same question over and over again.
I’m not convinced that the number of questions asked is the correct metric. In the end the point is not to have a constant flow of questions, rather constant flow of answers found.
There is a point in proficiency in language/library/whatever after which it is faster to find the answer in the code/documentation/test example than to wait until another person on even higher level will come and answer your question.
Maybe we simply filled out what was needed to be asked in the beginner-bug found-intermediate space and, apart from questions stemming from new versions etc, SO does not need more questions?Expectation for everything to constantly grow is unrealistic
As more and more libraries are open source on GitHub or gitlab or sourceforge or whateverthefuck, asking questions on the libraries themselves (as an issue) is often the right thing to do, too… Less centralised than SO but also the only people who care about how to do things in a lib are people using the lib, so…
Honestly using the existing question stock to generate current-version answers using the current documentation as synthetic training data is probably the way to go.
I’ve lost count the number of times where I try to find something in SO, and it’s just someone posting the exact same example code as the answer. Or someone suggesting you just google it. Then I ask ChatGPT… and I get an answer.
My experience with SO is that I’ll look up a question about how to do something using X method and all the answers are like “why are you using X?” or “here’s how to do it using Y.”. You rarely find people answering the questions and instead find people trying to spread gospel about a certain tech that you aren’t using.
In my experience has been like “that’s a bug and was solved on version 2.1, update” and I’m having the exact problem in version 2.2 so what now?
Or I don’t actually get to update the version my company is using, is there a workaround?
I’ve been in your position and in the other person’s position many times. It can be frustrating but we need to think about the big picture. It’s possible you hadn’t considered a certain approach, and it’s probable that many other future readers will not have considered a certain approach. So even though you might have said that you want to do something specific, it’s often helpful to some people to provide general information of another way to tackle the same issue.
And of course you know your own situation, so now there are these comments that appear off topic, and they kind of are, for you, and that’s just how it is on forums.
The other situation that comes up a lot is that people are doing it wrong. They are misusing some piece of technology and while their kluge might kind of work right now, it’s setting themselves up for bigger issues in the future. Of course no one appreciates it when you tell them they’re doing it wrong.
People don’t like when you don’t answer their question because it doesn’t give them an answer to their question. Just answer the question first and then hop on your high horse to tell them why it’s not going to work.
My experience with SO is somewhat the same, but sometimes (actually maybe most times) you’re trying to use a hammer to screw in a screw… If you read the suggestions and take them into account you can often find the actual question, and then the actual answer.
I’ve decided the best way to deal with someone asking an XY question is the following.
- Answer it. I don’t know what this person is doing, maybe they do really need to do some super weird thing and they are 4 weeks deep into “getting this project to work” and they don’t need me giving them the idea they also immediately thought of and can’t do for a bunch of reasons they are too exhausted to go into.
- See if this is an XY problem.
I have found this to be infinitely more well received. I think because by answering the question upfront without any annoying back and forth about why exactly they need to OCR a pdf in JavaScript, they are much more likely to be willing to have a dialog if their immediate question has been met.
The only danger is that some noob might stop reading after the answer and not engage with the deeper design issue, but by gatekeeping the answer behind a “you must convince the council of elders that you are doing something reasonable first” all we’ve done is push those people into ChatGPTs cheery answer first even if you have to make it up hands.
I very rarely ask questions on stack overflow but I appreciate much more as a sanity check on what I’m attempting to do.
In my experience, the majority of people have a flawed initial approach to what they’re trying to do, and if they all follow it they’ll produce a lot of really shitty software and learn very little in the process.
But they’re likely gonna anyway and didn’t even appreciate the sanity checks, so I fully expect software quality will continue to go down.
Yea I just think too many people end up forcing a sanity check before they will answer the question and it tends to make the question askers grumpy.
I’ve just noticed that if I answer their question first and then ask them a sanity check, they will more often engage with my sanity check.
Humans are tribal animals to a great degree, and the older I get the more I just accept that. And so if someone comes and asks me a question and I know they are more likely to accept pointed questions from someone they consider part of their tribe, answering the question first is an easy way to get them to put down their guard and engage.
I think what’s interesting about the ascent of LLMs is that they show that people are hungry for something to just answer their question. So much so that they are willing to deal with getting a completely wrong answer and having to come back and go “that function you suggested doesnt exist” a half dozen times.
I also moderate a couple technical discords and there are always members of the community that want to catalog and organize questions so they never have to answer the same question twice. And I get that impulse, but the thing I realized is that question askers want help.
I made it a point to make a culture around just answering questions and those communities are thriving. We don’t tell people to go search, we don’t tell people to explain themselves. Step one is always, answer their question. Then you are free to ask them why and see if there’s a better approach, but if someone wants to reverse flat map a list, show them how, and then they will be much more receptive to you asking why.
Yeah I mean that all sounds reasonable. I’m rooting for stack overflow to continue because it’s frequently helpful. I’ve basically never found chatgpt to be helpful.
My experience has been more like this:
OP: I’m trying to make lasagna from scratch but my noodles aren’t turning out right. Here’s my noodle recipe and settings for my pasta machine.
Mod: duplicate post of “How to make canned spaghetti bolognese” thread locked.
This was the majority of my experience as well. As a newer programmer, I’m more than happy to always know a better option. But if the way I’m looking to solve my problem is wrong, don’t just give me Y, explain to me why it may not work how I think it will. Tell me about X and some pitfalls or reasoning for it not going to work, then recommend Y. Because if others only see the Y answer to my question about X, they’ll probably just keep searching for a solution to X not knowing it may not work like I didn’t know.
This is honestly the reason why it’s going downhill, forcing people to do Y or use Z because of some problem irrelevant to the question being asked.
It limits creativity and depth of discussion on a forum designed to discuss all principles of programming
Yep, they aggressively XY problem your question until you give up. Also why many questions do not give the answer to the problem what most people asking that question would ask.
Then the author marks the question as answered because doing Y solves their problem…
Good for you, but I actually need to do X and Y wouldn’t work for me. At least change the title so it doesn’t come up as the top result in search engines.
I think all that needs to be said is if you search how to install a new CA in a given runtimes cert store, odds are the first and accepted answer will almost without fail describe how to disable ssl.
A lot of times the accepted answer on a locked question will be extremely outdated and/or not even functional anymore.
Modern tech charges at a break neck pace and stack overflow can’t keep up because the people who run the community created rules that artificially led to it not keeping up
That’s strange. It’s almost never my experience on stack overflow.
What you’re describing happens mostly on reddit and lemmy.
Thats been my experience as well.
On SO it seems much more likely that the answers answering a different question have a negative score.
Even without LLMs, it’s possible StackOverflow would have eventually faded into irrelevance – perhaps driven by moderation policy changes or something else that started in 2014
💯
actually, i was surprised it took off at all, because there are plenty less formal alternatives, but the name is catchy with devs. maybe that’s all it took.
It took off because searching a specific issue is likely to give you a good and comprehensive answer back with minimal effort, so it kept being ranked well in search engines.
Other less “pedantic” forums are great for discussion and they encourage new questions, but they don’t perform nearly as well for people searching for the answers or the context they’re looking for: there’s too much noise in the discussion and answers are often scattered in multiple topics.
I stopped using it before chatgpt arrived. You can always find answers in the documentation or in github issues
I used it once in high school, got called a retard for asking a beginner question, then avoided it like the plague for 20 years.
Hey look everyone it’s that retard from stack overflow!
Aw shit, not again.
I highly doubt they called you a retard.
People seem to be happy because of SO becoming irrelevant. I really don’t get it, I used this website for many years now and for me it is the second (after Wikipedia) most valuable source of knowledge. The UI is clean, no intrusive adds, best answer is the most visible. Threads are well organised and on topic. No spam, no dark patterns, no wasting your time. Discoverability is great, you can easily browse and learn knew things. It is also SEO friendly. Why do you prefer Discord? What do I miss?
Why do you prefer Discord? What do I miss?
I’ve had a discussion with someone about this. Apparently, there are people that enjoy the social contact. Some seem to like sitting in a Discord chat all day long and answering the same questions over and over again. Others like to “just ask” someone instead of looking for a solution themselves.
That there’s no clear structure of all the solutions provided via Discord and thus people have to ask the same things, nor a proper way of backing everything up in case Discord goes rogue seems to be blissfully ignored.
It’s probably part of the same phenomenon that, nowadays, people seem unable to write or read a few lines of documentation and instead create/watch 20 minutes on YouTube.
YouTube might be the plague that killed the written web, you say? The blogging murderer?
best answer is the most visible
no wasting your time
These two points aren’t always true in my experience. On more than a few occasions, I have encountered posts that look similar to the problems that I am facing, but because of a slight nuance (on the surface), the answers suggested won’t help.
Usually, my search would hit a deadend here. At this point, I guess the best course of action is to create a new post. Unfortunately, these new posts would then get closed as a duplicate of the similar post - even though the problem in that particular context still hasn’t been solved
get closed as a duplicate of the similar post
I’ve definitely had this happen to be before. It’s annoying.
What I do in that case is proactively say:
I’m facing problem X. I’ve tried searching for solutions. I found post X2 and X3 that are similar, but my problem is actually different because of Y.
Sometimes it helps.
Also, if you see people being assholes you can report them. There’s a flag for “unfriendly or unkind”. I’ve definitely used that before.
Agree with you, SO is great for finding info. There are solutions on there for niche problems that I haven’t been able to find elsewhere, the type of thing where someone actually took the time to type out a step-by-step answer and it’s now there and searchable on SO. It’s a bummer that so many people seem to hate on the site nowadays.
And lets not forget the whole reason SO came out in the first place, back then web results were littered with question/answer links to sites like Experts-Exchange. I hated trying to figure out if an answer was on there, most of the time you ended up with a link to a question that you think has an answer but oh no you need to subscribe to view an answer that may or may not exist.
People got butthurt after being told their beginner question has already been answered
Most people can’t think for themselves and will say whatever makes them fit in with their peers.
Never again will I help provide content to a VC-backed service just so that they can rugpull us and cash-out.
That’s why people should be posting on fedi and never post on corporate web.
When corporate tells you its a parasite, believe it
What exactly do you accuse Stack Overflow for? As far as I know this service has always been free to use and data is easily downloadable.
“Free to use” on a VC-backed service just means you’re the product. I am accusing them of the same thing I’m accusing each VC-backed service: That they exploit our efforts to cash out and then sell the service for someone who will enshittify it for profit.
Also, what do you mean “easily downloadable”? Can anyone download the entire corpus of SO in a way that they could set up their own SO with the same content to bootstrap them?
Also, what do you mean “easily downloadable”? Can anyone download the entire corpus of SO in a way that they could set up their own SO with the same content to bootstrap them?
have you seen: https://archive.org/details/stackexchange
That they exploit our efforts to cash out and then sell the service for someone who will enshittify it for profit.
Can you give an example of this enshittification for profit?
Can you give an example of this enshittification for profit?
So I agree, I thought you are talking about some profit enshittification on Stack Overflow
I’m not following SO practices, but I it will come for it as well. It’s inevitable. Those who paid billions for it will require a ROI
I live in the hope that the insightful comments I left on reddit over my long tenure there will eventually be part of a FOSS corpus, once the VCs can’t extract anything of competitive value from it anymore. I’ll be long dead, but my comments will live on.
for a life of mine, I can’t understand why people don’t value knowledge enough to make their own website and be proud of it; PS. I have made a load of CMS and now working on new approach to web dev …
Because it won’t be used and won’t be seen, that’s the sad reality of it. I do host a small personal blog run of org-mode+hugo, but it gets less visitors than a library at midnight
