I keep seeing posts mentioning this phenomenon more and more often.
For instance:
‘Andrew Tate phenomena’ surges in schools - with boys refusing to talk to female teacher
Like, why? Why now? Why even? I really wish I had a time machine where I could go to the future and ask them what the general reasons were for this social development. But I feel like I’m looking for the specific thorn on a cactus that popped my balloon.
My guess is that the internet connects them to like minded misogynists, then it’s just a big women hating circle jerk that perpetuates the reason they got into it in the first place: women dislike them, because they are misogynists.
It’s not complicated. They’re horny and frustrated that they can’t get a woman to be interested in them. Tate tells them it’s not their fault and that the blame lies with women and society, allowing them to not feel shitty about themselves or make any effort to improve.
It’s a combination of them being young and dumb, but also being brought up mind-fucked by social media from the beginning of their lives.
The algorithm pushes them that direction.
On YouTube I’m constantly one video away from “owning the woke libs” content because I turned my view history off.
Yo the second I turned off personalized ads I got so many ads for erectile dysfunction medication. It felt like they were trying to embarrass me into turning personalized ads back on.
That’s both funny and very insulting.
I think its because, to an extent, masculinity has been villainized, and people who are masculine (in appearance, identity or desire to be traditionally masculine) naturally look for people that pretend to value them.
This combined with reduction or even removal of shop classes, reduced PE, recess and physical activities in school, female teachers now far outnumbering male teachers, and strict attitude towards typical male behavior can easily build a huge amount of resentment in young men. Most public schools now are heavily tailored towards female students.
Doing normal boy stuff, like roughing each other up and messing with your friends got me and other boys detention, and it felt extremely unfair.
What you consider masculine or feminine behavior is mostly socially constructed.
There are these myths that only men where hunters while women where only gatherers, which turn out to be false. Women and men both hunted and gathered. Link
IMO, the real issue is that current society places to much attention to gender roles, and for men it is done it in a way that makes it difficult and contradictory for young men to find their place: “You are a ‘man’, and you have to behave this specific way, however if you do that you are bad and will have trouble finding a partner. However if you do not behave like a ‘man’, you are weird.”
The conservative gender roles don’t only hurt women, they hurt men as well. And dating and finding a good partner sucks for everyone.
Most public schools now are heavily tailored towards female students
Schooling has become overly feminized to the detriment of boys. Graduation rates are the very clear proof
The algorithms in social media, media platforms, and search engines are all designed to keep users engaged so that ad revenue can be generated and user data can be harvested.
Adding to that, a lot of these misogynistic creators leverage predatory practices that manipulate marginalized people into sycophantcy.
When this and other factors come together, we wind up with mindless drones which are easily manipulated, constantly angry, and always searching for a way to “get back” at those that who marginalized them.
This explains MAGA
Social medias thrive on engagement, and controversial content is king of engagement.
So social medias companies push content like Andrew Tate and co because it makes them money and they don’t care about anything else.
Young people are impressionable, and they get pushed that crap over and over.
If everyday of your life you get told that women are just baby factories, you will eventually start to believe it, some sooner than others.
From around 2022 until just recently YouTube Shorts was heavily pushing Tate on me (an almost 50 year old man).
No matter how many times I disliked and/or blocked the poster, the YouTube algorithm just kept throwing more Tate at me. I don’t know what I did to make YouTube think I’d be interested in that clown.
On the plus side, it made me a lot more aware of what’s going on, hence my efforts to get Google out of my life. I can spot someone trying to manipulate me, but I have young sons who might not.
Thanks for protecting your sons from that shit
I really wish I had a time machine where I could go to the future and ask them what the general reasons were for this social development.
I think I had this exact thought yesterday. In the past, there’s been hints that appear within just a few months if you’re looking.
Most of the explanations posted aren’t very convincing. If it’s just a daddy figure or toxic masculinity or just personal affirmation that’s not new and should have applied all along. The YouTube algorithm could be part of it, but then you just get a question about why the YouTube algorithm was pushing that.
A random theory, just based on something I read recently: looksmaxxing is becoming a big thing, which is itself a sign of equality in that the burden for being attractive is now going both ways. Paradoxically, the new cohort of men with body image issues is very vulnerable to radicalisation by the manosphere.
It’d be kind of surprising if that was the whole thing, though…
That’s what happen when identity politics mark a group as less important and the enemy.
It happens when right wing do identity politics an the marginalized minorities group together against it.
Left wing for some reason decided to use exactly the same strategy as the right wing and took identity politics as a way to do politics and they are having exactly the same result. The “marginalized” identity turned against them.
Surprised Pikachu face.
Yep…
I blame the algorithms. This shit is oushed in front of impressionable young men’s faces by most social media algorithms because it drives (toxic) engagement. Others have already described why it’s appealing.
This shit has always existed but it’s given a soap box because corporate wants number to go up, and sadly parents these days leave parenting up to social media so they don’t teach them that these views are abhorrent.
Because positive masculinity doesn’t get clicks like toxic masculinity does, sadly. No shortage of examples of the latter, but there just aren’t enough examples of healthy manhood out there to learn from, or at least not enough ones in the algorithms.
What’s worse, in so many cases it’s assumed that positive masculinity just means being receptive, sensitive, collaborative and being connected with others. These are qualities that are typically associated with women, and a lot of guys shun anything that might make them “look like a woman”. Then it’s assumed, more or less, that you’ll need to be more like a woman in order to not be toxic.
Obviously not true, but this leaves young men in a vacuum. So they fail to live up to their potential, plus they lose out on relationships, are isolated from their peers who could steer them in a better direction, and are without a secure sense of self.
So, in come the Andrew Tates of the world to give them a seemingly easier and better way to cope. Sure, they’re told they’re special, but then they’re fed the notions like “might is right”, that there are only winners and losers in this world, and to “get the prom queen”. Not wanting to miss out on this is incredibly enticing for these young men, so the manosphere sucks them right in.
It’s gotta so, so much deeper than just changing the messaging. Positive male role models and helping young men understand who they are, creating healthy examples of masculinity that are both manly and positive, can make a difference. Without that, the far-right black hole that is the manosphere is going to keep getting more young men trapped in it.
I think at the root of it all is a far broader phenomenon than that which is far from gender specific.
In simple terms: quiet confidence doesn’t stand-out in “loud” environments were people’s attention is being sought by countless other people, especially for people who aren’t sophisticated and lived enough to recognize and value it, and the vast majority young people are such people as are (or so it seems to me at times) a large minority or even a majority of supposedly adults.
Putting it in another way, both quiet confident people are nowhere as invested into shaping the opinions of others as to spend most of their time “shouting” (and by “shouting” I mean all the ways people try and project and impression onto others, not just speaking loudly, so for example how some people always dress to impress rather than dress for themselves) and unsophisticated people are drawn to “loudness” rather than more subtle elements of how others talk, dress, make choices and act.
This stuff is behind phenomenons like Influencers, Celebrity Culture, Populist Politicians and so on, which has been pushed very hard in Western Culture for decades now.
So loud toxic masculinity posers with lots of exposure in the News Media (with the well known “Halo Effect” that people who are talked about a lot are perceived by others as important even when most of the talking about them is saying negative things) will get the attention of and influence emotional, social and/or intellectual simpletons.
Young men have problems in their lives, like everyone else does, maybe less, maybe more than other groups in society but that does not matter because for them it’s the most vivid problems. He talks to specifically them and their problems.
I don’t know how the media in your country sounds*, but here every time there is an issue discussed it tends to be: women, minorites, whatever have a problem, men are the problem.
If the mainstream does not talk about young men’s issues, you will hand over the attention of young men to someone who does.
*In a news article, or a political speech try switching the word man/woman black/white immigrant etc for their opposite. Some of them sound absolutely absurd when you do.
I feel like there is also a pathologization of being single. I was a teenager in the late 90s/early 2000s, so before most of social media. I’m also from a village where most people knew each other.
There were a couple of nerdy, shy guys who never had a girlfriend by the time of graduation. I only had one boyfriend at 16 for 2 month before his friend told me he was only dating me as a dare. I was “ugly” and “not a real girl” because I didn’t wear makeup and mostly wore jeans and Tshirts. Stupid village kids.
Anyway, similar things happened to the nerdy guys. But no one started crying about all men/women being awful and no one became an incel. Several girls and boys in my class never dated by the time we graduated and that just wasn’t a big deal. Nowadays everybody’s being told there’s something wrong with them if they’ve never had a partner by age 17.
I always have to push back against this pathologization narrative. The very obvious alternatives are:
(1) that these guys you are talking about would have easily fallen into the trap of the right wing manosphere if it had been available, because being unable to find a parter when your hormones are urging you to and when everyone else around you seems able to find one is intensely painful. But you wouldn’t hear about it, since no one talks about it, because the least attractive thing you can do is talk about how you are frustrated by your lack of romantic success.
(2) the nerdy guys might just accept their lack of partners, but these days the demographic of unpartnered young men is significantly more diverse, and more likely to contain, let’s say… less discerning thinkers…
It’s kind of like saying “back in my day, no one really cared about getting kicked in the head by a horse. Yeah, it happened, and it sucked, but it just wasn’t a big deal. There wasn’t the social stigma that getting kicked in the head by a horse was bad, or that you shouldn’t get kicked in the head by a horse.”
while I agree, I think there are people who ended up choosing (1) because of pathologization, because they were ridiculed and the increased stress made them decide it’s easier to hate women
Lol…
Looks away
Young men are struggling badly, and almost no one seems to take it seriously. A lot of them want to man up - but the message they get from much of the media is to man down. I saw a Reddit thread asking who young boys could look up to as a role model, and the top answer was Aragorn. You literally have to turn to fictional characters to find someone broadly seen as decent.
They gravitate toward people like Andrew Tate (and Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Jocko Willink, David Goggins, etc.) because those are some of the only public voices telling them it’s okay to be a man - and to embrace masculine traits - without apology.
Actual answer is too far down.
Also innocent boys doing nothing wrong being told they are the cause of all the problems in the world while they struggle and see everyone else get help they are excluded from.
Nick Offerman is right there!
I mean, the problem is that Nick Offerman is too wholesome. Young guys are horny. They need role models who are also horny. But the message that is sent is “it is good to be a man, but only once you are 40 with a pot belly and a wife and kids and no sex drive.” Or “it is okay to be a man, but if you want to be horny, you have to be gay”. Or “it is okay to be a horny straight man, but only if you are so dumb and mockable as to be harmless.”
Show me the man, fictional or not, who is straight, sexual, and not constantly the butt of the joke. Show me an example of where a man wanting to have sex for the sake of having sex - not to get a girlfriend or live happily ever after - is framed as a legitimate goal which should be supported by the people around him, and which is not seen as a farce.
Show me the man, fictional or not, who is straight, sexual, and not constantly the butt of the joke.
That is literally Nick Offerman. Not his character from Parks and Rec, but him personally and especially his stand up act.
Show me an example of where a man wanting to have sex for the sake of having sex - not to get a girlfriend or live happily ever after - is framed as a legitimate goal which should be supported by the people around him, and which is not seen as a farce.
Rock stars.
To add to that, men were also turned to anime male figures like Kenshiro from the Fist of North Star as a key example that it is okay for men to cry. When for a long ass time, it was frowned upon for men to cry or show emotion.
There are enough voices and role models, there are books on how bad men have it, there are podcasts (Diary of the CEO) and philosophers talking about it. I stumble upon the topic at least every week. For example there is a great video of Mathew Hussey on the dating crisis and how troublesome it is for men. He is a dating coach for women and still making good content for men. It doesn’t seem to reach those who need it most, though. Could be trough algorithms, could be because they choose the hateful content with the “easy” solution (women are bad and need to be treated so) over the complex truth… That men had a privileged life for the last few hundred years, and now that women earn their own money they probably need to offer more than finance. By the way it is crazy how the world developed. Every household basically needs to double earn to survive so… yes. Financing is not the thing most women are looking for anymore and men are not even being able to give it. There are political and social problems we all have to fight (together we could even do it but it is easier if we fight each other for those in power). Men suffer from patriarchy the same as women do. The difference is that now the privilege is gone and the gameplay changed, while some wealthy and reckless men pretend that it’s about “them not trying hard enough”. It’s like people in America still believing they could become a millionaire if they try hard enough and trump is a “financial genius” for being rich… Instead of just being a lucky son of a rich man. It seems to be a tradition to step down on others instead of facing the truth… Some wealthy idiots are ruining our world for all of us. Instead of feeling helpless about this fact it’s “the immigrants”, “the feminists”, or what else…
Just as many women are struggling badly. There is no male loneliness epidemic, there is human loneliness epidemic.
Those so-called “male traits” seem to be being a violent thug and being shit to women.
ofc anytime a man talks their issues are downplayed because woman go through the same stuff or have it even harder so just be quiet or deal with it or turn to tate and feel good about yourself because that man is supplying them dopamine while yall try to make them feel bad or like their feeling dont matter lol, guess which one wins lol
“All loneliness matters!”
