Why do you have to pick one or the other? Can we not recognize that the governments of western nations and the government of China are all evil institutions that cause far more harm than they ever could benefit?
China raised more people out of poverty than any other government in history, and certainly more than any non government group. The amount of good they’ve done is truly amazing, with absolute minimal harm when honestly compared with their western counterparts.
Would it be better to not have any institution and have automated luxury gay space communism? Sure. But we’re never getting there from a western society.
Again, both are shitty. In fact, not just both, but all. All hierarchical power structures are just plain evil. I’m not interested in parsing which evil is more evil. The Chinese government is an evil institution. The US government is an evil institution.
China is still communist even if they allow non essential industries to engage in capitalism. The entire point of dengism is to prevent ussr syndrome and avoid collapse and temptation due to stupid shit. Over 60% of the economy by GDP including all essential services, is owned by the people. The private sector exists solely to grow technological and industrial capacity, and is shrinking year by year.
Over 60% of the economy by GDP including all essential services, is owned by the peoplestate
FTFY
If the state represented the people, why does the Chinese government kill workers who try to organize so damn much? It’s because the state =/= the people. What you described is just capitalism where the state is one of the capitalist class. The difference with the US is that the US government is owned by the capitalist class rather than being one of it.
Incorrect, the barrier to entry for the government is much lower in China than say, the US or ‘democratic’ states. China doesn’t arbitrarily kill citizens, their police aren’t even armed. What does happen is they’re arrested and sentenced to education and reform, which does include how to redress complaints. All public workers are unionized in China, and there is no barrier nor suppression of private unions in the private sector.
The state in China objectively isn’t the capitalist class they don’t own capital. With public ownership of the means of production (in any public sector industry) it is by definition socialist. By every definition socialist.
Your confusion on this matter comes from the fact western sources do not publish how the Chinese government works or how easy it is to become a member and participate. The state equals the people, anyone can join he government and take on the boring admin work, there are checks at every level to reduce corruption and no one person ever has absolute power. Technically “the evil dictator Xi Jinping” could be ousted with a single vote, or multiple lower regional votes. The same is true for all positions. Appointments are democratically placed, so corruption is minimal. 400 million people would have to be unified and absolutely corrupt for the state to be corrupt. And that’s really hard to do. The US can’t even get 100 million people to agree to any single thing.
Depends on whether you think a baseline American prison is a concentration camp.
If they are, being instruments of racial and economic genocide, America has nearly 10x as many concentration camps as China with less than a quarter of the population. That’s not really a fair comparison though, given how much China loves centralization, so it’s probably better to talk about the number of people involved.
Current estimates place about 1-1.5 million Uyghurs in the camps. “Regular” prisoners account for another 1.7 million. There are currently 1.9 million US prisoners.
If we go ahead and give potential credit to all Chinese prisoners as victims of political and ethnic persecution as we have for American prisoners (as ACAB), that still leaves America with a wildly disproportionate prison population per capita. While China openly imprisons political dissidents and ethnic/religious minorities at nearly an equivalent rate to “regular” crimes.
So, do you honestly think we currently have fewer concentration camps in a way that matters? What’s it going to look like once we really start going?
I don’t think a baseline American prison is a concentration camp. Gitmo for sure, but a normal prison not really. There’s bias in the system, but you don’t go to jail for just being black/latino/gay/muslim (yet). And AFAIK they don’t steal your organs (again, yet).
As I said, there’s bias in the system, but for now you’re not put in prison just for being black. There’s an attempt at legitimacy. Acab, driving while black, stop and frisk, etc, not only the war on drugs… but there’s still a big gap to “go to jail for being Muslim and since you have two kids we’re sterilizing you”.
About homelessness being a crime, doesn’t surprise me in the least. My mind was blown when I learned “loitering” is a legal term. It is illegal to “be somewhere”, even if are not homeless. However you keep your kidneys in the morning, so… yay?
Not really. Again according to the UN report nothing China has done is special compared to just normal American prisons. Except fewer uighurs as a percentage of their population were ever imprisoned than just black men as a percentage of the total black population.
If what you believe happened in Xinjiang is genocide, America is currently commiting genocide on twice the scale for the past 120 years.
I’d love to see that UN report. Please link it, or at least copy-paste the section comparing the two. I want to see how they sterilize and how they steal organs from Americans.
No UN report has ever found sterilization or organ harvesting happening in Xinjiang. Ever. At literally any point. There were unsubstantiated claims of that from the same people saying the suicide bombers were justified.
Better China than the West. At least slavery is banned in China.
Why do you have to pick one or the other? Can we not recognize that the governments of western nations and the government of China are all evil institutions that cause far more harm than they ever could benefit?
‘recognize’ is a weird word for ‘delude’.
China raised more people out of poverty than any other government in history, and certainly more than any non government group. The amount of good they’ve done is truly amazing, with absolute minimal harm when honestly compared with their western counterparts.
Would it be better to not have any institution and have automated luxury gay space communism? Sure. But we’re never getting there from a western society.
Again, both are shitty. In fact, not just both, but all. All hierarchical power structures are just plain evil. I’m not interested in parsing which evil is more evil. The Chinese government is an evil institution. The US government is an evil institution.
That’s a fine ideal to strive towards, an communism, including the Chinese government hopes to get there some day.
China hasn’t been a communist country in a long time. That was the whole point of the Deng reforms.
China is still communist even if they allow non essential industries to engage in capitalism. The entire point of dengism is to prevent ussr syndrome and avoid collapse and temptation due to stupid shit. Over 60% of the economy by GDP including all essential services, is owned by the people. The private sector exists solely to grow technological and industrial capacity, and is shrinking year by year.
FTFY
If the state represented the people, why does the Chinese government kill workers who try to organize so damn much? It’s because the state =/= the people. What you described is just capitalism where the state is one of the capitalist class. The difference with the US is that the US government is owned by the capitalist class rather than being one of it.
Incorrect, the barrier to entry for the government is much lower in China than say, the US or ‘democratic’ states. China doesn’t arbitrarily kill citizens, their police aren’t even armed. What does happen is they’re arrested and sentenced to education and reform, which does include how to redress complaints. All public workers are unionized in China, and there is no barrier nor suppression of private unions in the private sector.
The state in China objectively isn’t the capitalist class they don’t own capital. With public ownership of the means of production (in any public sector industry) it is by definition socialist. By every definition socialist.
Your confusion on this matter comes from the fact western sources do not publish how the Chinese government works or how easy it is to become a member and participate. The state equals the people, anyone can join he government and take on the boring admin work, there are checks at every level to reduce corruption and no one person ever has absolute power. Technically “the evil dictator Xi Jinping” could be ousted with a single vote, or multiple lower regional votes. The same is true for all positions. Appointments are democratically placed, so corruption is minimal. 400 million people would have to be unified and absolutely corrupt for the state to be corrupt. And that’s really hard to do. The US can’t even get 100 million people to agree to any single thing.
As long as you’re not Muslim.
China has more mosques than the US, and Xinjiang is majority Muslim.
They also have more concentration erh, I mean, re-education camps. For now, at least.
Depends on whether you think a baseline American prison is a concentration camp.
If they are, being instruments of racial and economic genocide, America has nearly 10x as many concentration camps as China with less than a quarter of the population. That’s not really a fair comparison though, given how much China loves centralization, so it’s probably better to talk about the number of people involved.
Current estimates place about 1-1.5 million Uyghurs in the camps. “Regular” prisoners account for another 1.7 million. There are currently 1.9 million US prisoners.
If we go ahead and give potential credit to all Chinese prisoners as victims of political and ethnic persecution as we have for American prisoners (as ACAB), that still leaves America with a wildly disproportionate prison population per capita. While China openly imprisons political dissidents and ethnic/religious minorities at nearly an equivalent rate to “regular” crimes.
So, do you honestly think we currently have fewer concentration camps in a way that matters? What’s it going to look like once we really start going?
I don’t think a baseline American prison is a concentration camp. Gitmo for sure, but a normal prison not really. There’s bias in the system, but you don’t go to jail for just being black/latino/gay/muslim (yet). And AFAIK they don’t steal your organs (again, yet).
https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-drugs-designed-to-criminalize-black-people/
Don’t forget it’s a crime to be homeless now. Look forward to that.
As I said, there’s bias in the system, but for now you’re not put in prison just for being black. There’s an attempt at legitimacy. Acab, driving while black, stop and frisk, etc, not only the war on drugs… but there’s still a big gap to “go to jail for being Muslim and since you have two kids we’re sterilizing you”.
About homelessness being a crime, doesn’t surprise me in the least. My mind was blown when I learned “loitering” is a legal term. It is illegal to “be somewhere”, even if are not homeless. However you keep your kidneys in the morning, so… yay?
Not really. Again according to the UN report nothing China has done is special compared to just normal American prisons. Except fewer uighurs as a percentage of their population were ever imprisoned than just black men as a percentage of the total black population.
If what you believe happened in Xinjiang is genocide, America is currently commiting genocide on twice the scale for the past 120 years.
I’d love to see that UN report. Please link it, or at least copy-paste the section comparing the two. I want to see how they sterilize and how they steal organs from Americans.
No UN report has ever found sterilization or organ harvesting happening in Xinjiang. Ever. At literally any point. There were unsubstantiated claims of that from the same people saying the suicide bombers were justified.
Oh, so no link? Comparing the two? I’m so, so, so surprised. What a shocking turn of events. I’m flabbergasted.
…i never claimed there was. I know English isn’t your first language but I thought all you westerners had to learn it properly.