I will be able to tell my grandchildren I voted directly against the horrors they will be* learning about in history class. No need for supporting arguments about how doing otherwise was a more genuine rejection of this fucked up system.
“There is nothing I dread So much, as a Division of the Republick[sic] into two great Parties, each arranged under its Leader, and concerting Measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble Apprehension is to be dreaded as the greatest political Evil, under our Constitution.”
John Adams
"The two-party system teaches you that there’s a constant battle of good versus evil, when in reality, it’s just a fight for power.”
Ross Perot
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.”
Noam Chomsky
Isn’t this like shouting at the cashier because the supplier raised the prices?
Fortunately I don’t live under Democracy with American Characteristics (and may be I am missing something here) but I am pretty sure there is a huge machination behind the “sacrifice countless numbers of people to do it” that has nothing to with you or the person you comment to. Seems like you are on the same side.
I just find it amusing when folks claim that their conscience and hands are clean when they played a part in getting trump elected.
It was a decision telling of priorities, and sending a message, or maintaining a clear conscience, was likely deemed more important than the ramifications a trump presidency. That’s why I mentioned the ivory tower - I assumed that you thought you weren’t going to be too affected by a trump presidency? Either that, or you wanted to maintain a clean conscious despite that? The latter is admirable in it’s own way, but i believe less likely when looking at entire populations.
“played a part in getting trump elected” this is so vague though. Because I can argue that you played a part on getting Trump elected by voting for Democrats for the past 50 years.
The lower class has been dying. It’s either death by a thousand cuts or whatever Trump and his cronies are doing. The faster the death the faster the lower class will react.
So you can see that as the silver lining on Trump’s election.
A lot of these comments in this post seem insane but what it looks like is that non-principled people just can not understand principled people. The non-principled people hurt themselves (and many others) in their confusion.
You had a choice to make, either vote for one of them, assuming you’re American and can vote, or be complicit with whomever was elected. You can trick yourself into believing you had no impact on the outcome, but assume what I said earlier was true, you either helped trump get elected, and therefore have blood on your hands, or you voted against trump, and have blood on your hands, but less blood.
The result would be the same no matter the candidate. Gaza was razed to the ground while the democrats were in power. And not only that, but they actively backed the Israeli government. If we allow ourselves to betray our moral principles, then we are on a downwards spiral where each candidate can say and do whatever they want, as long as the candidate next to them is a tiny bit worse.
Hence why I said you had blood on your hands no matter what. This is where harm mitigation comes in, by not voting, you agree to whoever is elected, in this case trump who wants to further ethnic cleansing. This was the last election in the US as we know it. And trump isn’t a “tiny bit worse”.
Who said anything about not voting? There were not just two candidates last time I checked.
I agree to whoever gets elected, because that is how democracy works. As far as I am concerned that might be the last election in the US. period. And the Democratic Party is partly to blame.
Not voting for the only viable candidate that wasn’t an overt fascist is empowering fascists. The democrats aren’t solely to blame those who allowed a fascist dictator to come into power share the blame
“Not voting for the only viable candidate”. So between two shit candidates, we should vote for the one who smells the least like shit. Nope. That’s not how democracy works. Everyone should vote for the candidate that bests represents them. I didn’t say that democrats are solely to blame. I said partly.
When it’s fptp yes that’s the litteral outcome. Everyone SHOULD vote for the best candidate that represents them, in FPTP that’s not how it works. When only one of 2 parties could get elected in the US and one of them is a fascist dictator, and the other isn’t that is how it must work. When fptp is removed, and you could get a real democracy then yes. Until then the only moral option is to mitigate harm
And that literally doesn’t solve anything. It just postpones the inevitable. Democracy lost the moment DNC plotted against Bernie Sanders back in 2016. What would you think would happen if we had another 4 years of Democrats? Fascism would just come 4 years later.
Thank you, yes when it comes to a fascist dictator vs a non fascist, non dictator, voting for the non fascist non dictator is the only viable option, unless you’re OK with a fascist dictator.
Unfortunately most people here are in their early twenties and have yet to learn about the flaws of FPTP. Sadly this was probably their most important election and they fucked it up.
I was not complicit in getting either of them elected. My hands are clean, and so is my conscience.
I will be able to tell my grandchildren I voted directly against the horrors they will be* learning about in history class. No need for supporting arguments about how doing otherwise was a more genuine rejection of this fucked up system.
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice” Rush-Freewill
I know my quotes too.
“There is nothing I dread So much, as a Division of the Republick[sic] into two great Parties, each arranged under its Leader, and concerting Measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble Apprehension is to be dreaded as the greatest political Evil, under our Constitution.” John Adams
"The two-party system teaches you that there’s a constant battle of good versus evil, when in reality, it’s just a fight for power.” Ross Perot
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.” Noam Chomsky
Want me to go on?
Indeed. But you must always remember that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for God men to do nothing…
— Alucard, lol
You’re living with the delusion of clean hands and a clean conscious and you only had to sacrifice countless numbers of people to do it.
Isn’t this like shouting at the cashier because the supplier raised the prices?
Fortunately I don’t live under Democracy with American Characteristics (and may be I am missing something here) but I am pretty sure there is a huge machination behind the “sacrifice countless numbers of people to do it” that has nothing to with you or the person you comment to. Seems like you are on the same side.
If I had voted for Kamala I would’t even have that delusion.
This is prime “enlightened third party voter” meme material right here.
Must be nice in that ivory tower.
And this is prime “You didn’t vote for my shit candidate, therefore you are literally Hitler”.
It is certainly nice to not have blood on my hands.
Oh I didn’t say that.
I just find it amusing when folks claim that their conscience and hands are clean when they played a part in getting trump elected.
It was a decision telling of priorities, and sending a message, or maintaining a clear conscience, was likely deemed more important than the ramifications a trump presidency. That’s why I mentioned the ivory tower - I assumed that you thought you weren’t going to be too affected by a trump presidency? Either that, or you wanted to maintain a clean conscious despite that? The latter is admirable in it’s own way, but i believe less likely when looking at entire populations.
“played a part in getting trump elected” this is so vague though. Because I can argue that you played a part on getting Trump elected by voting for Democrats for the past 50 years.
The lower class has been dying. It’s either death by a thousand cuts or whatever Trump and his cronies are doing. The faster the death the faster the lower class will react.
So you can see that as the silver lining on Trump’s election.
A lot of these comments in this post seem insane but what it looks like is that non-principled people just can not understand principled people. The non-principled people hurt themselves (and many others) in their confusion.
this is an interesting stance. not a US citizen, but i live in a country where voting is mandatory. i assume you didnt vote?
There are not just two candidates in the US, although the establishment would prefer everyone to believe that.
right but FPTP kinda ensures third party is negligible until it becomes the ‘second party’ right?
edit: and also, i agree itd not youre fault, not trying to assess blame, just trying to understand the psyche of a (realistically) non-voter
Unfortunately.
So you acknowledge your part in getting Trump elected, good to know.
In a few years maybe you’ll drop this delusion that you didn’t elect Trump by not voting for Harris.
My part in getting Trump elected is minuscule to the part the Democratic Party played to get him electable.
You had a choice to make, either vote for one of them, assuming you’re American and can vote, or be complicit with whomever was elected. You can trick yourself into believing you had no impact on the outcome, but assume what I said earlier was true, you either helped trump get elected, and therefore have blood on your hands, or you voted against trump, and have blood on your hands, but less blood.
The result would be the same no matter the candidate. Gaza was razed to the ground while the democrats were in power. And not only that, but they actively backed the Israeli government. If we allow ourselves to betray our moral principles, then we are on a downwards spiral where each candidate can say and do whatever they want, as long as the candidate next to them is a tiny bit worse.
Hence why I said you had blood on your hands no matter what. This is where harm mitigation comes in, by not voting, you agree to whoever is elected, in this case trump who wants to further ethnic cleansing. This was the last election in the US as we know it. And trump isn’t a “tiny bit worse”.
Who said anything about not voting? There were not just two candidates last time I checked.
I agree to whoever gets elected, because that is how democracy works. As far as I am concerned that might be the last election in the US. period. And the Democratic Party is partly to blame.
Not voting for the only viable candidate that wasn’t an overt fascist is empowering fascists. The democrats aren’t solely to blame those who allowed a fascist dictator to come into power share the blame
“Not voting for the only viable candidate”. So between two shit candidates, we should vote for the one who smells the least like shit. Nope. That’s not how democracy works. Everyone should vote for the candidate that bests represents them. I didn’t say that democrats are solely to blame. I said partly.
When it’s fptp yes that’s the litteral outcome. Everyone SHOULD vote for the best candidate that represents them, in FPTP that’s not how it works. When only one of 2 parties could get elected in the US and one of them is a fascist dictator, and the other isn’t that is how it must work. When fptp is removed, and you could get a real democracy then yes. Until then the only moral option is to mitigate harm
And that literally doesn’t solve anything. It just postpones the inevitable. Democracy lost the moment DNC plotted against Bernie Sanders back in 2016. What would you think would happen if we had another 4 years of Democrats? Fascism would just come 4 years later.
Not voting for candidate = voting for them.
Solid logic.
Telling people how they have to vote.
Also, solid logic.
Thank you, yes when it comes to a fascist dictator vs a non fascist, non dictator, voting for the non fascist non dictator is the only viable option, unless you’re OK with a fascist dictator.
Pretty fucking clear.
Unfortunately most people here are in their early twenties and have yet to learn about the flaws of FPTP. Sadly this was probably their most important election and they fucked it up.
You were complicit in getting Trump elected the moment you didnt vote for his opponent.
Did he have only one opponent? Last time I checked there were more than two candidates.