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I’ll always remember this one time in the 1990s when my family and I were watching some medical documentary on cable TV. There was footage of a trans woman getting top surgery, and they showed the medical details and cutting of her uncovered chest with no problem, but the instant the breast implant was slipped beneath the patient’s skin they blurred out the nipple because it became unsuitable for unedited broadcast at that moment.
i think about that moment a lot.
gender affirming censorship
Is it illegal for women to be topless?
I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s not common for women to ever be topless in Scotland, but it’s not explicitly illegal to be naked (men or women). Only more vague public decency and harassment laws. If a woman in Scotland was topless sunbathing, they’d definitely get some looks, but I think it’s very unlikely the police would intervene.
Yeah. That seems sexist.
Free the nipple.
Genuine question, how is it sexist? Is their no acknowledgment of biological differences between men and women as a general rule (trans issues being more of an exception to the rule)? We acknowledge differences in general in regards to sports, bathrooms, fitting rooms, the way clothes are made, people’s consumption of pornography, magazines and media. Why on this point are we ignoring that all of those things ls are real and happen and pretending there’s no difference?
Why should a nipple be hidden only if it is a female one. Why would man have the right to walk without t-shirts and woman be punished for the same walk?
Yet imo it should be the other way. Males need to cover up to. Lets see how fast they start complaining.
I think there’s less of a need for men to cover up. That not to say I don’t agree with your point entirely. While shirtless men do seem to arouse women and gay men, correct me if if wrong, it’s seems like it’s more of a overall thing, where with women the arousal is mostly centred around the breasts themselves and the nipples.
I think it’s also more appropriate to say feminine breasts, I know this opinion can vary person to person but most people can agree man boobs generally don’t excite people, it’s the muscle and tone that women find attractive. This can apply to feminine breasts but I think it’s generally more accepted that they are more likely to arouse or at least be interesting.
It is not the womans fault that a guy gets exited. It is not her duty to cover up to make sure his weak mind has a bit more ease. It is his to control his thinking and doing.
And btw why is males make woman/gay exited a good / allouwable ( is that a word ? ) thing and female nipples make man exited a bad one. 2 different rules because of sexe… That is sexist.
I don t think i would go naked shopping or so. The fact that some woman who want to can not do that is the thing that is wrong. Ergo hide the male body to => no more differences.
It’s not the woman’s fault that a guy gets excited
There has to be some acknowledgement that getting aroused by bare breasts is a completely normal and healthy thing. If I didn’t become aroused my gf would think there’s something wrong with me in fact a lot of women would say there’s something wrong with a man or even think they are broken if they didn’t. It’s generally accepted that the reason women modify their breasts are for purely sexual reasons and to create attraction and arousal. But arousal isn’t really the main point. The main point is a line has to be drawn somewhere that balances the generally accepted standards of decency with the individuals freedoms and the impact that freedom has on everyone else. I think current laws do a reasonable job of that. If I had kids I wouldn’t want a woman with large implanted boobs to stand in front of them on a bus for half an hour while they bounced up and down. I’m happy for the law to prevent this scenario from happening. I can acknowledge that I wouldn’t want a man with big gross man boobs to either but the difference in emotion that creates seems relevant.
There are differences, but there is no need for different rules.
Can you, or are you willing to, say outright, why it should be illegal?
Because I think having breasts is different to not having them and that human arousal and disgust (may be a strong word) is real and that as a general rule it’s appropriate and even beneficial to exclude the extremes of these things from day to day life unless the individual wants to opt in. I suppose a line has to be drawn somewhere and given that there is a real reaction across most of society it’s a reasonable place to draw it.
So because men are more horny than women, women should habe fewer freedoms?
And what about tribal societies where everybody is bare chested all the time? Do you believe all nen there are horny all the time because the See female breasts every day?
I can see this point, I’m just not sure going back to what is generally considered a primitive culture is really worth the trouble to get there. We don’t live like that any more. Can we at least beat the billionaires first?
Tribals that do that see a body not a part to be shamed for. This is more freedom than in the article.
And the respons you got by primitive… Maybe our rules also come from an old way of looking to woman as the wrong sexe. I believe a snake and an apple are big parts in that story :)
Genuine answer: I’m specifically speaking to how men and women are treated as a matter of law.
Laws should not differentiate between men, women, sexual orientation or identity, sexual preferences, kinks, lifestyles, etc.
If a thing is illegal, it should be illegal for everyone, or noone. In this case, the law says that it is legal to go topless unless you are a woman. It specifically cites, as a rule of law, that women are to be treated differently on purpose. That, by definition, is sexist.
Almost all of the other examples you provided are matters of social norms, comforts, and tropes. Nothing else you mentioned has the same weight as the rule of law.
Women have different clothing and different clothing styles than men, they’re shaped differently so we make clothes that fit the female form better, just like we have clothes that fit the male form better.
Different washrooms, I disagree with; we should have gender neutral bathrooms and put all this transphobia bullshit about what bathroom people use, to bed. Bluntly: the bathroom isn’t a social gathering, people generally are not walking around unclothed or partially clothed in the common areas of even a gendered bathroom. You go in there to resolve your bodily needs to expel waste. Get in, do what you need to do, and get out. With a little more effort in isolating stalls, an ungendered bathroom is the best option. You don’t have a “men’s” and “women’s” bathroom at home… They don’t pointlessly gender bathrooms in planes or busses, among many other places, so making bathrooms that are meant for larger groups in public spaces, gendered, does not really logically make any sense at all.
There’s a ton more I could say about this or many other things but simply: I feel like I’ve addressed your question.
Let me know if you need any further clarifications.
Aren’t decency laws based on current societal norms? And age of consent laws often acknowledge a difference between genders.
It is sexist because you’re treating them differently based on arbitrary cultural standards. Why are you pretending made up social constructs are real? We shouldn’t be consistently sexist. We should want equality for all.
Ok. So if it’s based on arbitrary cultural standards that are made up, wouldn’t the new version just be a different made up social construct that we would pretend is real as well? Except we would just be pretending that boobs aren’t real? Or have no relevance
You being horny isn’t a justification treat women as second class citizens. Grow up.
I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about humans in general. I think it’s obscene on some level for a stranger to walk around topless in front of children.
arbitrary cultural standards that are not applied equally are sexist.
If the rule changed as to be everyone has to cover up their chests it would become sexist to men because men don’t even have breasts.
Men have chests. Fat men also have breasts.
But it seems the defining feature is the nipple, and both sexes have those.
Men and women both have nipples. The difference is that women might need to pull them put to feed a baby. If we want to treat them differently, should it not be reversed?
Because the sexualization of the female nipple is the only reason it is illegal to bare it in public. There is no universal or biological reason to ban it, just a cultural conditioning.
Yes, I guess what I’m asking is are we pretending that this “conditioning” isn’t a real thing? I also read recently (sorry if this is wrong) that there was a study done on arousal of breasts between societies where they are covered up vs where they are not. It found the level of arousal remained consistent.
If women everywhere suddenly felt that men showing their faces was arousing, should they be required to cover that too?
I’m sorry but I don’t feel that’s a reasonable hypothetical. Society would be so different in so many ways if that were true that the time line would look completely different, who know we probably wouldn’t have made it to now. And yes hypothetically if this did happen all of a sudden there would be lots of calls to do something about the new situation
Yes, I guess what I’m asking is are we pretending that this “conditioning” isn’t a real thing? I also read recently (sorry if this is wrong) that there was a study done on arousal of breasts between societies where they are covered up vs where they are not. It found the level of arousal remained consistent.
Why wouldn’t having to deal with that arousal be the problem and responsibility of the aroused instead of, by default and preemtively, limiting the rights of any prospective and involuntary “arousee” in existence?
If arousal isn’t a real thing and it’s the fault of the person being aroused, would that suggest total nudity should be ok as well?
If arousal isn’t a real thing and it’s the fault of the person being aroused, would that suggest total nudity should be ok as well?
Remember this whole discussion is about discrimination. So what you’re asking is “In contexts where full male body nudity is arbitrarily deemed acceptable, why wouldn’t full female body nudity be acceptable as well?”
And the answer, of course, is that there’s no reason to make a distinction, is there?
Some of these users are unironically repeating rape cultural word for word and in this case with the add on of “I’m just asking questions”. Thanks for sticking it to them. =)
Some of these users are unironically repeating rape cultural word for word and in this case with the add on of “I’m just asking questions”. Thanks for sticking it to them. =)
I really don’t think that’s a useful mindset. We’re all just people here, having conversations and - ideally - socratic dialogues. What could be gained by sticking anything to anyone?
The only reason to cover women’s nipples is because the gender in power may have hormonal changes that they are unwilling to control.
I’m sorry I’m not following. What’s the “gender in power?” Is that societal or the individual?
The patriarchy
I’m reminded of the story of a couple comprised of a cis woman and a trans woman who wanted to get married in a state that was trying to forbid gay marriage. The state was in the position of either accepting that the trans woman was a woman and trying to forbid their marriage, or asserting that she was not in fact a woman but then allowing them to get married.
The fact they just censored the nipples still 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Took me a while to even notice they are censored, and not just weird looking
Cause transwomen aren’t biological women?
Well, transwomen are women.
A living edge case. I love it.
I guess the only solution is to free the nipple
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No true Scotsman? 🤷♀️
Nyuk nyuk nyuk.Katy Montgomerie a really good interview with one of the women at the protest: https://youtu.be/wbA0q0eqYnM
Trust me when I say this: none of the right-wing media/politicians, will understand that they’ve made any points on behalf of the protestors by blurring the “men’s” nipples.
Also, saying men can go around topless but not women, is sexist. Any such law should be removed. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law. With that said: that shouldn’t imply that women should go around topless. It should just be legally allowed. I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
The whole situation is dumb. Society needs to do better. We’re all people. Let’s keep that in mind and treat everyone the same, based on the fact that they are a human person in society. No legal separation of sex, gender, race, religion, or anything else. If you are a human person, you should have the same rights and freedoms as every other human person.
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Why can’t trans women count as women? Trans women have historically faced even higher rates of discrimination than cis women.
I’ve never bought this notion that recognizing trans women as women in turn affects women’s rights or systems that support women. That’s like saying just because my 23 and me came back 1% African we should stop DEI because if everyone is diverse then it doesn’t make sense to support diversity. (I swear to God, if I get Trump jokes—).
Life is complicated and we’ve managed to evolve systems to handle it before, we can continue. If I can have 3 ways to sort my 401k or do my taxes then I can have a world where I’m a feminist and that includes trans women
I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
It’s normal and fairly mundane for men to go topless in virtually all societies, however, there are a good number of cultures where it is also normal for women to be topless. If it is normal and mundane for women to be topless, then it becomes a non-issue eventually. It’s only racy because we’re trained in our culture to find it racy.
In the late 90s or early aughts here in Canada women challenged and won the right to go topless as well as men. I can’t recall seeing in person any women exercising that right myself, and it won’t surprise me if the religions conservatives here have managed to overturn that directly or indirectly, but as a teenager/young adult i thought it was cool at the time that Canada fixed that inequality
Didn’t really have a point here just felt like sharing
OH! Finally! A chance to use my knowledge acquired from scrolling wikipedia while procrastinating! That law hasn’t been overturned and is still, well, law. Of course every once in a while some clueless cop (because why should somebody enforcing the law, know the law sigh) will ask a topless sunbather to cover up. Here’s the article.
You won’t find disagreement here.
The fact of the matter is that the change won’t happen overnight; and there’s already a disproportional number of assaults against women, even if they’re fully dressed when the assault begins.
While the argument of “she was asking for it” relating to what someone is wearing, is entirely bullshit and without any merit, and the fact that it’s on the male culture to… Idk, not be rapists, and not encourage rapists and rapist tenancies; I know plenty of women that don’t want to risk encouraging such behavior against themselves. Whether they should need to or not isn’t material to the point. They don’t feel safe otherwise.
I’m not going to tell anyone what to wear. I will say that maybe people just shouldn’t rape other people, regardless of circumstances. No, not maybe. They definitely should not, under any circumstances, ever rape anyone. Just don’t rape people.
Anyways. It would be a long road to get to the place you propose, and a lot of violence would likely happen before we would see the ideal that you are describing. I wish it was different, but I can’t change the world, I can only change myself.
True, however we are also trained to be everything. Literally whole law, moral system and everything about human society is subjective and made up. Should we pursue to deconstruct this subjectivity? No it is what allows us to function. However we should pursue equality in an egalitarian sense of every member of society.
Our subjective and made up rules should be equal for all members of the society and where they cannot be because they meet biological objectivity there they need to be humane and in best interest of the person in light of law so that the person can live with dignity and possess full autonomy unless judged to be stripped away from such
Saying ‘women shouldn’t go around topless’ isn’t allowing society to function. It’s sexist and demonizes women’s bodies in a way that promotes violence against women. Deconstruct your society or don’t, but don’t be surprised when you end up in a death camp because you thought it was fine to give second class person status to half your population.
It’s like on the last place of my problems but if this is what most people want then we should obviously change it. However something tells me that it’s not a problem and most people do not care if it wasn’t ever even voted on.
Loud minority screams “I wanna go naked on the streets” and honestly it’s one of the more ridiculous things. Let’s focus on real problems such as abortion and whole birth giver societal asymmetry and how to fairly address it to make society more egalitarian.
No one is seriously thinking “oh no I have to put my shirt on before going out, this is fascism” men and women alike aren’t going bare chested in the city in the streets because this is how we agreed. No one wants to see your saggy breasts and no one wants to see disgusting male beer bellies.
Go to the beach and there go topless all you want. That’s what I do anyway. We collectively agreed that this is where it is fine to do so. Or on your property, you can walk even completely naked all you want.
I know my one neighbor is every morning going naked on the balcony and has a huge cock so I guess it’s kind of confidence thing too. Generally he is built rather nicely to look at. Still his balcony so he can do whatever he wants no matter how attractive and I can go naked on my balcony too
However something tells me that it’s not a problem and most people do not care if it wasn’t ever even voted on.
No, actually people want equality. We’ve been fighting for it for centuries. We’ll be fighting for it as long as there are people who want to take it away.
Loud minority screams “I wanna go naked on the streets”
Men go topless all the time. The fact you need to bend over backwards here is an obvious demonstration that you are not arguing in good faith. @[email protected], do you see what I mean?
“oh no I have to put my shirt on before going out, this is fascism”
More of the same. Really stunning to watch a person tie themselves into knots for the sake of inequality. Some people really do hate women.
Go to the beach and there go topless all you want. That’s what I do anyway. We collectively agreed that this is where it is fine to do so. Or on your property, you can walk even completely naked all you want.
Women should be allowed to go topless wherever men can. See how it’s trivial to describe when the goal is equality. It’s inequality that adds needless complexity.
Radical gender centrist
This really says it all. The word you’re looking for is misogynist.
Sure I am misogynist cause I don’t wanna go with my tits out to the streets
It’s hard to believe there are actually people like you out there, somewhere. Counterproductive to any kind of movement. Sabotaging it over and over again. Derailing any semblance of productive equality action.
The kind of 2.5% support left that can never understand why people do not vote for them. Always surprised when bubble bursts, then outraged. Eternal victims.
Good luck to your bare tits cause
I cannot imagine being a cop in this country the laws are just totally arbitrary and you’d have to enforce them even though they make zero sense.
It gets even mader. If you take one step over the border into England, being topless suddenly becomes legal regardless of gender or birth sex.
however it is not an offence for a man or a woman to be topless in England and Wales, so long as the person has not taken off their clothes with the intention of shocking or upsetting others.
There is even a special ordinances for Newcastle that say that the moment the temperature exceeds 12°C taking your top off becomes mandatory.
Am Newcastle. Can confirm.
UK Supreme Court:
“We now rule that while men and women are allowed to be topless, this doesn’t apply to trans women. Trans women, and only trans women, can be tried for being topless.”
Does this mean you can stand on the south side of hadrians wall and wave your titties at the Scots without legal repercussions?
Fuck yes.
Fucking Genius
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Try adding “AI powered” in there maybe. Lemmies love that.
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