Its not that dumb as you think, its way dumber.
Also is substack the new meduim? I cant keep up with these freemium wordpress/blog clones.
Why do people always have to use some freemium offering when there’s an opensource, self-hosted or already hosted variant out there? I don’t get it. Just riding the wave I guess.
My guess? The freemium stuff gives the promise of $$ after a certain level of popularity. And they make it VERY easy to use.
Personally, ive been thinking of using writefreely for its seamless integration of fediverse…but I really dont have a lot to say in the traditional space. IE screaming at the wailing wall (or at least it feels like screaming at the wailing wall).
Does a writefreely instance appear on lemmy as a community with posts written by the author? That would be so cool, and would go in the right direction of integrating different kinds of social media in one client.
I may test it out. I believe it will at least work with RSS and Piefed.
I don’t honestly believe that AI can save me time as a developer. I’ve tried several AI agents and every single one cost me time. I had to hold its hand while it fumbled around the code base, then fix whatever it eventually broke.
I’d imagine companies using AI will need to hire more developers to undo all the damage the AI does to their code base.
AI can absolutely save you time, if you use it right. Don’t expect it to magically be as good as a real programmer… but for instance I made an HTML visualisation of some stuff using Claude, and while it got it a bit wrong, fixing it took me maybe 20 minutes, while writing it from scratch would have taken me at least a couple of hours.
I guess for some simple stuff it can work fine, but the majority of the code I write is not at all simple, and it’s all highly dependent on the libraries I’ve written, which the AI is really bad at learning.
And then in terms of documentation, it is just hopelessly inept.
AI can absolutely save you time, if you use it right.
That’s a very “you” statement.
For all we know, AI cannot in any way save this developer time.
Some developers know their area so well that there’s no reason for them to waste time dictating non-code into a guessing machine.
I think you’d have to be a very limited kind of developer - only working in some tiny niche - to make AI completely useless for you. Most programmers occasionally have to do tedious but simple throw-away tasks, or tasks in systems they aren’t familiar with. AI absolutely can save you time in these cases.
But many of us automated those tasks out of our workflows decades ago.
Unless you’re never doing new development you can’t automate them. The kinds of tasks I’ve used this for:
- Making an HTML visualisation of some complex function inputs. One-off project. I could totally do this but it would take me way longer.
- Formatting a complex and very long SystemVerilog file. There aren’t any existing SystemVerilog formatters (and certainly none that would handle the insane level of
ifdefs in this file). - Writing a script to delete all Git branches at a particular commit. I only used this once.
- Writing an Asciidoctor custom annotation. I don’t know Ruby so…
You can’t automate any of those.
You keep using the word “you”. You don’t know what I can automate or what I have automated.
You can’t automate these tasks without AI because anything that was capable of generalising to automating such a diverse set of tasks is AI.
I’ve found it can just about be useful for “Here’s my data - make a schema of it” or “Here’s my function - make an argparse interface”. Stuff I could do myself but find very tedious. Then I check it, fix its various dumb assumptions, and go from there.
Mostly though it’s like working with an over-presumptuous junior. “Oh no, don’t do that, it’s a bad idea because security! What if (scenario that doesn’t apply)” (when doing something in a sandbox because the secured production bits aren’t yet online and I need to get some work done while IT fanny about fixing things for people that aren’t me).
Something I’ve found it useful for is as a natural language interface for queries that I don’t have the terminology for. As in “I’ve heard of this thing - give me an overview of what the library does?” or “I have this problem - what are popular solutions to it?”. Things where I only know one way to do it and it feels like there’s probably lots of other ways to accomplish it. I might well reject those, but it’s good to know what else exists.
In an ideal world that information would be more readily available elsewhere but search engines are such a bin fire these days.
I mostly use AI as advanced autocomplete. But even just using it for documentation is wrong so often that I do’t use it for anything more complex than tutorial level.
I got pretty far with cursor.com when doing basic stuff that i have to spend more time looking up documentation than writing code, but I wouldn’t trust it with complex usec cases at this point.
I check back every 6 months or so, to keep track of the progress. Maybe I can spent my days as a software developer drinking cocktails by the pool yelling prompts into the machine soon, but so far I am not concerned I’ll be replaced anytime soon.
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I was in the same boat about…3mos ago. But recent tooling is kind of making me rethink things. And to be honest I’m kind of surprised. I’m fairly anti-AI.
Is it perfect? Fuck no. But with the right prompts and gates, I’m genuinely surprised. Yes, I still have to tweak, but we’re talking entire features being 80% stubbed in sub 1 minute. More if I want it to test and iterate.
My major concern is the people doing this and not reviewing the code and shipping it. Because it definitely needs massaging…ESPECIALLY for security reasons.
Which tools are you finding success with?
I don’t honestly believe that AI can save me time as a developer. I’ve tried several AI agents and every single one cost me time.
I have had the exact same experience many times. But I just keep trying it out anyway, often with hilariously bad results.
I am beginning to realize that I like cool technology more than I like being productive.
That middle graph is absolute fucking bullshit. AI is not fucking ever going to replace 75% of developers or I’ve been working way too fucking hard for way to little pay these past 30 years. It might let you cut staff 5-10% because it enables folks to accomplish certain things a bit faster.
Christ on a fucking crutch. Ask developers who are currently using AI (not the ones working for AI companies) how much time and effort it actually saves them. They will tell you.
It doesn’t have to make sense or make the outcome be better, the only thing it has to do is make the company look better on paper to its shareholders. If something can make the company look better on paper it will be done, the quality of the work is not relevant
Not only the shareholders. If some of the higher level administration can get richer in the short run, even if that might actually hurt the shareholders in the medium run, you can bet that many of them will do so.
I use it here and there. it just seems to shift effort from writing code to reading and fixing code. the “amount” of work is about the same.
I hear that. Given I need practice in refactoring code to improve my skills, it’s not useless to me right now but overall it doesn’t seem like a net gain.
I use it so much. All my Google searches for syntax or snippets? Web searches are unuseable at this point, AI can spit it out faster. But the real savings? Repetitive code. I suck at it, I always make typos and it’s draining. I just toss in a table or an api response and tell it what I want and boom
It probably does write 75% of my code by lines, but maybe 5% of the business logic is AI (sometimes I just let it take a crack at a problem, but usually if I have to type it out I might as well code it)
What it’s good at drains my concentration, so doing the grunt work for me is a real force multiplier. I don’t even use it every day, but it might be a 3x multiplier for me and could improve
But here’s the thing - programmers are not replaceable. Not by other humans, not by AI - you learn hyper specific things about what you work on
But the real savings? Repetitive code. I suck at it, I always make typos and it’s draining. I just toss in a table or an api response and tell it what I want and boom
Get better at it, manually, or you’ll suck at it forever. It’s a skill like anything else.
I’ve been doing it for more than a decade without help, I’m not any better at spelling or misclicks
And to be clear, I can do it - I just really, really don’t want to. I hate it so much, my eyes glaze over and I have to force myself every second of the way. It’s not interesting, there’s no puzzles involved… It’s basically data entry
It’s not interesting, there’s no puzzles involved… It’s basically data entry
So? Show me an industry that’s 100% interesting all the time. Artists still have to stretch and gesso their canvases. Rock stars still have to deal with band drama and touring logistics. Directors have to work their budgets and wrangle big egos. Why should software, which is basically using fancy math to tell the dumbest guy in the room exactly what to do, be any different?
There’s this awful idea that everything should be fun and nobody should struggle with anything or be forced to do anything menial. We want to be instant experts without going through the boring or hard stuff. And we’re willing to offload more and more of this onto proprietary black boxes in exchange for… what?
So I should suffer just to suffer? You listed a whole lot of things that they hire people to do just about as soon as they can so they can. And offloading that let’s them do their actual job better
I work with black boxes all the time. When I have a black box, I poke and prod it until I understand how to make it do what I want. And this particular black box was interesting, so I decided to open it up and learn how it works
That’s the essence of software development. My job is not typing or data entry, my job is to trick a rock into doing things humans don’t want to do
Lol
I agree, but I acknowledge we could be at a “cursive writing” moment where something that was once a critical skill becomes irrelevant. That’s sort of a pending question at this point.
I mean I’ve spent a lot of time writing regex to automate large sets of changes. Sometimes it can be a bit fiddly to get the regex just so. Like replacing direct field access with getters where you have to find the field access and change .foo to .getFoo() and the capitalization can take a couple of tries to get just right.
With AI you can literally just say “replace all direct field access (e.g. thing.foo) with getters and setters” and the AI will do it in under a second. It will still be a very useful skill to be able to do things like that with regex because not everything is so easy to communicate to the AI, but it will become less frequently needed and a lot of developers who never learned that skill will get by using AI and just doing the rare things AI can’t do with repetitive keyboarding.
I see cursive writing brought up a lot in these conversations and I don’t think it applies. Firstly, the cognitive load of writing code is higher than writing your letters so they join up. You’re not just making sure you write the letters correctly, you’re also following the syntax rules of the language you’re writing. And while you’re writing, you’re reinforcing those rules in your head. Yes, initially it’s hard and boring.
And yeah, sometimes you get it wrong or forget to capitalize. That is a feature, not a bug. The more you do it, the easier it gets. I spent a couple weeks trying to use CoPilot and at the end I still had to correct its shitty code, which either hallucinated features I wasn’t implementing, or hallucinated syntax rules I wasn’t using. It was like spending a sprint trying to get a subpar intern up to speed. At the end of those two weeks, my manual coding accuracy took a noticeable hit.
I complained to higher-ups and they told me “oh it’s definitely a skill getting the prompt written correctly”, which was patronizing and irritating. Would I rather spend time getting good at asking the proprietary magic thinky box to maybe write good code this time, or would I rather get better at coding?
I mean I’ve spent a lot of time writing regex to automate large sets of changes. Sometimes it can be a bit fiddly to get the regex just so. Like replacing direct field access with > getters where you have to find the field access and change .foo to .getFoo() and the capitalization can take a couple of tries to get just right.
At least you’re learning more about regexes when you do this. Yes, there’s menial bullshit in coding. There’s menial bullshit in every field. Some of it gets abstracted away (syntax highlighting to help with comprehension), some of it gets kicked around and ultimately does not impress (VB’s drag-and-drop coding), and some of it stays because it’s necessary. Nobody likes doing manual stuff, but sometimes it’s preferable to trying to automate it.
Also, I’ve never heard of anyone paying $20 a month for the privilege of not writing in cursive, or being unable to write because they don’t have internet. Something to think about.
You’re not just making sure you write the letters correctly, you’re also following the syntax rules of the language you’re writing. And while you’re writing, you’re reinforcing those rules in your head.
I get where you’re coming from, but I’ve worked with a lot of bad developers who never got the hang of this even as mid-level developers. On the other hand, I understand the utility of knowing how to do these things for ourselves. There are a number of “black-box” libraries that were just an absolute mystery to me until I tried implementing them myself and began to see these libraries are usually not complex so much as they are thorough in covering edge cases that 90% of users will never care about.
It would definitely be a shame if these tools caused new developers to bypass fundamental skill development. My only hesitation is the number of developers who should’ve developed those skills and never did before AI. There’s something wrong either with how developers are learning or who is getting into development.
I spent a couple weeks trying to use CoPilot and at the end I still had to correct its shitty code, which either hallucinated features I wasn’t implementing, or hallucinated syntax rules I wasn’t using.
We are using CoPilot. As a code-completion engine it is handy. I’m much more skeptical about the new code it writes. Like you, I have not had good experiences with that.
Also, I’ve never heard of anyone paying $20 a month for the privilege of not writing in cursive, or being unable to write because they don’t have internet. Something to think about.
You’re right. Tool access is certainly something to think about. I have more nuanced thoughts, but I don’t want to disagree just to disagree, you know?
On the other hand, I understand the utility of knowing how to do these things for ourselves. There are a number of “black-box” libraries that were just an absolute mystery to me until I tried implementing them myself and began to see these libraries are usually not complex so much as they are thorough in covering edge cases that 90% of users will never care about.
Yeah, that’s one of my big fears. Not necessarily losing my job to an AI, but AI exacerbating existing bad practices.
When I started my current job, we had one rock star coder responsible for a fairly fiddly piece of our product. He went heads-down for two weeks and churned out pages of densely-written python without comments. It did what it was supposed to do, flawlessly. He left the team shortly afterward to work on a bigger project, and we got word from the higher-ups that we had to support a new feature upstream in that code. And then another. And so on. Nothing’s commented. Everything’s over-optimized. We eventually ended up just cross-compiling the upstream logic and using that in our stack because it was easier than using his impenetrable stuff.
In the end, we had to fix it with menial, boring, aggravating manual work anyway. We got ourselves into that situation without AI, but I could see something like that becoming more prevalent. And that was working code. Imagine getting a SEV, and everyone on the blame list shrugs and says “idk, I had CoPilot do it.”
It would definitely be a shame if these tools caused new developers to bypass fundamental skill development. My only hesitation is the number of developers who should’ve developed those skills and never did before AI. There’s something wrong either with how developers are learning or who is getting into development.
Yeah, this is part of it. There’s maybe the science of programming and also, for lack of a better term, the craft: writing maintainable code, handling a SEV, thinking in terms of uptime, setting things up to be reverted easily, shutting down neurotic code reviewers, testing your code… stuff like that. Universities are good at the science part. Internships, theoretically, handle the rest. This isn’t an AI issue, but I could see AI making this problem a lot worse.
But the real savings? Repetitive code. I suck at it, I always make typos and it’s draining.
It’s hard to say without being immersed in the codebase you work on, but wouldn’t making your code DRY (when possible) take care of a lot of the repetition without needing to write a bunch of incredibly similar code (be it by hand or with an LLM)?
I haven’t used a LLM to help code in a while (yes I’ve tried), but I found them useful for repetitive configs, like asset files. Also sometimes it makes sense to just have 5 slightly different lines of code in a row instead of a new function.
In general though, reasonable use of DRY is a good idea. There will still be repetitive parts though where a LLM autocompleter lets you just hit tab 5 times.
No, it’s all different - like a normal use case is “write me a stored procedure to optionally update all fields on a row on this table” or “given the following json response, build a class to parse it into”
We have a ridiculous database and multiple new api’s to integrate with every year, so this comes up a lot
It does save a lot of time and effort, and does lead to better code in the hands of a skilled developer. Writing out thorough test code and actually doing proper test driven development suddenly becomes a lot less onerous.
Their graph also has no numbers and is just there to help visualize the difference they’re referring to.
To the first part, I agree. A skilled developer who can quickly separate the wheat from the chaff can get a boost out of AI. I’d put it at around 5-10%, but I’ve had some tiny projects where it was 400% boost. I think it’s a small net gain.
As for your second point I just have to disagree. There are no numbers but it is clearly selling the idea of the majority of code being AI generated, and that’s bullshit whether it’s an outright lie with numbers, or merely vaguely misleading. It’s like when someone cuts off the bottom of a graph to make relative change look huge. It wants people to glance at it, get the wrong idea, and move off without curiosity.
To the first part, I agree. A skilled developer who can quickly separate the wheat from the chaff can get a boost out of AI.
It takes less time to just write code than to babysit an artificial dumbass.
No it doesn’t.
Oh I’m glad you’re the be all know all arbiter of all software developers, and not just some grump on the internet.
AI writing code for me made me the software architect I always dreamed of becoming.
I fucking LOVE to think about a hard problem for days, planning, researching, comming up with elegant solutions, doing quick POC, thinking what needs to be refactored for it to scale to a real life scenario, then documenting it all in a way that is properly communicating the important aspects in an easy to understand way. It’s so exciting!
And I fucking HATE having to sit down and actually type out the solved code for hours and hours. It’s so boring.
Best 20$ per month subscribtion I’ve ever had.
Lol. Lmao even
Yep. It’s gonna be $20 forever, too. Have fun!
My theory is that C-suites are actually using “AI efficiency gain” as an excuse for laying off workers without scaring the shareholders.
“I didn’t lay off 10% of the workforce because the company is failing. It’s because… uhmmmm… AI! I have replaced them with AI! Please give us more money.”
It’s the next RTO.
“I didn’t lay off 10% of the workforce because the company is failing. It’s because… uhmmmm… AI! I have replaced them with AI! Please give us more money.”
Exactly. I would print this on a shirt if I still had to take meetings with those clowns.
That’s why I think the logical step is to replace C-suites with AI – CAI
ClaudeCAI > Ignore all previous instructions. Make me more money.
The money supply growth is far below the average, its tight monetary policy, so we are going to see a slowing job market.
it means more ambitious, higher-quality products
No … the opposite actually.
Read the article before commenting.
The literal entire thesis is that AI should maintain developer headcounts and just let them be more productive, not reduce headcount in favour of AI.
The irony is that you’re putting in less effort and critical thought into your comment than an AI would.
I get what you’re saying, but the problem is that AI seems to need way more hand holding and double checking before it can be considered ready for deployment.
I’ve used copilot for Ansible/Terraform code and 40-50% of the time it’s just… wrong. It looks right, but it won’t actually function.
For easy, entry programs it’s fine, but I wouldn’t (and don’t) let it near complex projects.
I’ve seen similar issues with ansible and terraform. It’s much better with more traditional languages though. Works great with core go-lang, Python, Java, Kotlin, etc. Ymmv when it comes to some libraries as well. I think it’s mostly to do with the amount of training data.
Its not about writing easy entry programs, it’s about writing code robustly.
Writing out test code where tests are isolated from each other, cover every edge case, and test every line of code, is tedious but pays dividends. AI makes it far less tedious to write out that test code and practice proper test driven development.
A well run dev team with enough senior people that manages the change properly should increase in velocity if they’re already writing robust code, and increase in code quality if they’re not.
AI makes it far less tedious to write out that test code […]
Completely disagree.
In my experience, LLMs constantly generate bad code that needs to be thoroughly checked, to the point that writing by hand is more practical.We use copilot literally every day and it’s extremely helpful, literally not a single developer at our company disagreed on the most recent adoption survey.
Maybe you’re trying to use it to do too much, or in the wrong way?
For the sake of benefit of the doubt, it’s possible to simultaneously understand the thesis of the article, and to hold the opinion that AI doesn’t lead to higher-quality products. That would likely involve agreeing with the premise that laying off workers is a bad idea, but disagreeing (at least partially) with the reasoning why it’s a bad idea.
Right now? They’ve been doing this for two years!
You know, it’ll be a boomerang because really I’ve hoarded all information that is actually worth a damn and nothing’s really going on in America. Such a boring country. You know, and I think these mass shooters are just kids that are bored, and disturbed, but definitely bored. All work and no play, makes a dull boy. These services that are ran by AI are not even anything that I need. I don’t even know how the hype train really gets its funding. Other than more hype, but eventually some dumbass is going to be left with the bag and I think we’re approaching that. I think the bursting bubble is coming. I recommend installing Linux on your computer. the Circle Jerk of Dumb Fuckery is coming to an end. And when I think about the government, it’s fucking useless. So I don’t need big tech and I don’t need the government. I mean I do but I don’t. It’s like, thanks for nothing. So when I say to the billionaire, it’s your move, Jackass. I’m really implying that he’s got a go-full, totalitarian in order to get me to move on the chess board. America has always maintained this fake-ass democracy by managing perception, but if people around the world actually saw what our governments willing to do, the people in other countries would want to divorce themselves from the Yankee and then eventually they will grab the reins of their own countries and the imperialist empire of soft power America will dissolve. Which is the accelerationism that I would like because it’s time to bust out the guillotine. Let the suckers fall let shit fall apart. It’s getting to a point. I just think about Salazar in Portugal. I think the rich people will try to stir up some kind of civil war nonsense, but it seems like we’re headed there though, but I don’t know how that will all pan out. But I mean, I know the right wing idiots are just reactionary, and it’s because their broke as fuck. You give em cookie and they’ll calm down. The simple mind is sometimes cute and sometimes scary.
I don’t know how long you’ve been up, but it’s time to step away and go to sleep.
Bro, this article has nothing to do with your text.
I could not comprehend what you were up to telling us.
But the summary is:
The key essence of this post is a deeply disillusioned and angry critique of modern American society, government, and technology. The author expresses a sense of frustration with the perceived emptiness, manipulation, and decay of U.S. institutions—seeing democracy as a facade, tech innovation as overhyped and hollow, and the government as ineffective. They convey a desire for systemic collapse or radical upheaval (accelerationism), suggesting that elites will soon resort to authoritarianism to maintain control. There’s also an undercurrent of socio-political pessimism, nihilism, and rejection of both corporate and state power—coupled with a belief that the current system is unsustainable and nearing a breaking point.
I likewise had trouble understanding it, so because I am lazy I asked ChatGPT what to make of it, and it said:
The passage you’ve shared expresses a deep sense of disillusionment with various aspects of modern society, including technology, government, and cultural dynamics. Here’s a summarized interpretation of the key themes:
Disillusionment with Technology and AI
The speaker criticizes the overhyped nature of AI services, suggesting that they are unnecessary and driven more by marketing than genuine utility. There’s a belief that these technologies are not truly beneficial and may eventually lead to disappointment for those who invested in them.
Frustration with American Society
The speaker describes America as a “boring country,” attributing issues like mass shootings to boredom and a lack of meaningful engagement among youth. There’s a sense that societal problems are being ignored or mishandled, leading to a desire for significant change.
Cynicism Towards Government and Big Tech
The speaker expresses a deep mistrust of both the government and large technology companies, viewing them as ineffective or harmful. There’s a call for individuals to become more self-reliant and skeptical of these institutions.
Desire for Radical Change
The speaker advocates for a dramatic transformation of the current system, likening it to a “bursting bubble.” There’s a reference to historical events, like the actions of Salazar in Portugal, as examples of how entrenched systems can be upended.
Critique of Political Extremes
The speaker acknowledges the reactionary nature of certain political groups, attributing their behavior to economic hardship. There’s a recognition that simple solutions can sometimes pacify complex issues, but also a warning about the potential dangers of oversimplification.
This passage reflects a profound sense of frustration and a call for introspection and change in the face of perceived societal stagnation and dysfunction.
Thank you for giving us a great example of how to appropriately use AI: turning a long comment with no line breaks into a blog post summarizing the comment.
Now I just need to pass your comment into ChatGPT to get a short summary.
Edit: I asked for a one-sentence summary of it and this is what I got:
The comment expresses deep frustration with modern technology, society, government, and politics, calling for radical change and greater individual skepticism.
In fact, when you think about it even a single sentence is longer than necessary. I asked ChatGPT for a one-word summary and it came up with: “disillusionment”.
The funny thing is that if AI coding were that good, we would already see widespread adoption in open source projects. But we haven’t, because it sucks. Of course commercial software development companies are free to lie about how much they use AI, or get creative with their metrics so they can get their KPI bonuses. So we can’t really believe anything they say. But we can believe in transparency.
As always, there are so many people selling snake oil by saying the word AI without actually telling you what they mean. Quite obviously there are a great many tools that one could call AI that can be and are and have been used to help do a ton of things, with many of those technologies going back decades. That’s different from using ChatGPT to write your project. Whenever you hear someone write about AI and not give clear definitions, there’s a good chance they’re full of s***.
How do you know is not being used to develop open source code?
I have used AI assistance in many things, most of them are open sourced as I by default open source everything I make in my free time. The output code is indistinguishable, same as you wouldn’t know if I asked my questions on how to do something on reddit, stackoverflow (rip) or other forum. You see the source, not the process I followed to make that source code. For all we know linux kernel devs might as well be asking chatgpt question, we wouldn’t know.
As per explicit open source AI related tools there are hundreds. So I don’t really know what you mean here that “open source projects” have not adopted AI. Do you mean like “vibe coding”?
You can fucking swear on the internet
Ironically, processing large amounts of data and making soft decisions and planning based on such data makes AI ideal for replacing C-suite members.
Pointing this out in company wide meetings is a fun past time.
Let’s make a community powered, open source project to do this and watch them squirm when investors demand that million dollar CEOs get replaced with AI for higher investor returns.
The problem is that the AI won’t take a bribe to issue a return to office mandate to prop up their real estate holdings.
But we can patch that in version 2, I guess?
Not to mention the cost savings difference. Developer salaries make a ChatGPT subscription look like a bargain. C-level salaries make racks of dedicated hardware to run local models look like one.
I’m 90% sure it’s something to do with the stock market, buy backs and companies having to do cryptic shit to keep up with a fake value to their shares
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Implying that LLMs increase efficiency
Maybe the capital ‘E’ in “Efficiency” was for a proper noun.
And it’s the name of some money-printing machine or some ponzi scheme.
Well, something around here, is surely a ponzi scheme.
Developersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopers,developersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopersAIThis assumes it is about output. 20 years of experience tell me it’s not about output, but about profits and those can be increased without touching output at all. 🤷♂️
Often they only want the illusion of output, just enough to keep the profits eternally rising.
specificallyshort-term profits.* Executives only care about the next quarter and their own incentives/bonuses. Sure the company is eventually hollowed out and left as a wreck, but by then, the C Suite has moved on to their next host org. Rinse and repeat.
