Ok, I have more questions if you don’t mind: Do you interpret relieving your emotions by crying as being weak? Or perhaps feeling emotions as being weak? And do you find women more flawed, because they’re physically weaker than men?
Do you interpret relieving your emotions by crying as being weak ?
Yeah, obviously, would you say that it’s a sign of strength ?
Or perhaps feeling emotions as being weak ?
“Emotion” is a vague term. Some emotions like bravery(, often a borderline foolishness,) are assimilated with strength. Some emotions like the feeling of defeat, self-pity, the lack of resilience, the fear of authority/punishment that makes you betray others/ideals, that’s weak. Always interesting to see how Chelsea Manning is stronger than a lot of men in this regard. Men love to fight, so kinda appreciate to be hurt in a way, and are proud of their scars.
Some emotions are beautiful, such as the one expressed in poetry, others are ugly and you don’t need examples to get what i mean.
It’s easier to exclude men from external beauty and women from external strength than it is to exclude them from internal beauty and strength, respectively.
And do you find women more flawed, because they’re physically weaker than men ?
We have our qualities and flaws, some women are stronger than some men and some men are more beautiful( inside&outside) than women, and it’s reductive to stop at these two adjectives, as well as obviously erroneous to draw conclusion on an individual from generalities.
Here’s what i answered to a previous comment if you’re interested :
Admittedly, beauty is more useful in times of peace than strength, if i count the benefits(, women can give birth and that’s the most important thing in Nature), women have more of them than men, but if we can keep some of our qualities i won’t say no.
Thank you for taking your time and answering my questions. It’s always interesting to get to understand other people’s views a bit more. I have some quite different experiences from yours.
You’re asking me, whether I would say that crying is a sign of strength. I don’t view it neither as a sign of strength, nor as a sign of weakness. I take it as a natural reaction to overload of stress/emotion/pain. Being able to cry is physiologically beneficial (you get rid of cortisol) and psychologically it can help you process the things you’re going through more quickly. Trying to appear though by not crying seems counterproductive to me, but I understand in some cultures it is not socially acceptable to cry, especially for men.
When it comes to emotions, I agree it’s a vague term. I use the word for the very basic emotions of sadness, happiness, fear, anger, surprise and disgust, but you’re right that there’s a huge diversity and nuance. I think people need to understand their own emotions to be able to work with them consciously. If I was unable to regulate my emotions, it would be hard for me to make rational decisions. If I suppressed my emotions, I would still be influenced by them, but I would have no conscious control over them, which would again result in limiting my rationality severely.
I find the terms inner strength and beauty to be also very vague. I know a person, who’s super emotional in an uncontrollable way, you’d definitely find them weak, but when they were in a very tough situation, they proved to be totally unbreakable (they acted selflessly despite severe personal damage and were able to save several friends from a similar fate).
I agree with you that it’s reductive to stop on two adjectives. And when it comes to beauty and strength, I value intelligence and compassion much more in both men and women.
Generally, I think it’s a good thing there is a different mix of characteristics in different people. I don’t see any reason to propagate just one way for men and one way for women. People are diverse and I think it’s good for the whole society to embrace the diversity, because that makes the whole society stronger and more flexible, especially in a changing environment.
I take it as a natural reaction to overload of stress/emotion/pain. Being able to cry is physiologically beneficial (you get rid of cortisol) and psychologically it can help you process the things you’re going through more quickly. Trying to appear though by not crying seems counterproductive to me, but I understand in some cultures it is not socially acceptable to cry, especially for men.
To me, if you’re crying you’re admitting that something is stronger than you, that you’re powerless, and i still find it useless, i guess that i just have a bad image of it(, it can be beautiful though, like tears of joy, or of an emotion which isn’t defeat). But i clearly(, and subconsciously,) don’t treat men, women, or children, in the same point of view in regard to crying, i’d never think of saying “man up” to a woman hurt to the point of tears, yet i find it admirable when a man swallow his pain, and straighten his profile in order to act after whatever happened, that’s the common thinking, i’m not the weird one here(, even if my descriptions are very imperfect), but since modernity changed so many things they may end up suppressing the differences between men and women, or not, w/e.
If I suppressed my emotions, I would still be influenced by them, but I would have no conscious control over them, which would again result in limiting my rationality
On the contrary, suppressing your emotions helps to act rationally without being overwhelmed by them, in order to search for a solution or to act instead of self-pitying yourself, i guess i just don’t find an use to it, and yeah, it’s cultural, in the end whether you’re crying or not doesn’t matter compared to your other reactions, you’re sad and hurt and it’s unfair, but what can you do except fight back, women may use it in a discussion for different reasons, they’re hurt and it’s not useless to convey that in a discussion even if it’s unvolontary, for a man i would just find it shameful, men don’t have a lot of qualities, so let them at least be strong, a rock to cling onto, that won’t fail you, that’s kinda my thought i guess, i.d.k., and yeah, once again, it’s cultural, just as i think it’s a quality, a sign of reliability, at least an advantage we can have as men, 🤷♂️.
And i.m.o. there’s no real difference between emotions and reason, since our feelings can be explained rationally, we’re often saying that “reason ignore the heart’s own reasons”, but that’s not true, we are indeed influenced by subconscious feelings that we would be unable to analyse, but that’s a minor side and i don’t make a distinction between the cold reasoning and the hot emotions, i’m deciding with both and i think almost everyone does the same.
I don’t see how having cried can help you to see clearly, emotions are the fuel for reason, you’re hurt for yourself or someone and want to change things, if crying helps you see clearly afterwards then perhaps go ahead, i’ll continue to admire this “manly ideal” of an indestructible rock(, massive if possible). Women have their ideal of a perfect women, i have mine of a perfect man, at least physically(, and perhaps interestingly my ideal of a perfect women is almost exclusively about her personality).
I find the terms inner strength and beauty to be also very vague.
100%, i realized it when i was listing my examples, and the other example you gave me is another very good one, you can indeed find effeminate/weak persons who are “tough motherf*ckers”, i didn’t give enough thought behind what “internally strong” may mean, and it also depends on the situation, it’s not because you’re weak or ugly internally at one time that you can’t act beautifully or strongly at another time.
Overall, i realize that i didn’t give much thought on this subject, i would have difficulties to enumerate the different opinions and haven’t read a single book on this topic(, nor watch a single video), so i don’t know, it’s just how i feel. Strength is good in a woman, at least mental strength, but i’m more looking for beautiful thoughts in women and strong thoughts in men, kinda, if i’m thinking in examples i would usually react in the same way if a man or a woman says something, but i’ve thought of a counter-example : if a woman saw an atrocity and reacted in a plaintive voice by saying “this is awful”(, and eventually grapple my sleeve if i want to exaggerate), i would find that natural, but if a man says it in the same tone i’d feel the need to say “man up”(, or just have this thought), not if it’s said in a voice of anger(/threat) though. I could also talk about a man acting “cute” and how that would make me uncomfortable(, instead of finding it, indeed, cute for women), i.d.k., it’s just cultural differences, there’s not much point in adding “arguments”.
I agree with you that it’s reductive to stop on two adjectives. And when it comes to beauty and strength, I value intelligence and compassion much more in both men and women.
B.t.w., it doesn’t come from me, i have a story and some good memories from it. But in a few words, i asked someone special(, ~9 years ago,) if he had a motto, and he told me that the masonic triangle is “Strength · Beauty · Wisdom”, i still haven’t checked if it’s true(, but discovered a few years later that it’s in the Kabbalah). It stayed in my mind and i naturally decided to apply it to men and women and divide it in internally//externally. Just to say that somewhere.
While reductive, i think it has a lot of truth in it.
I don’t see any reason to propagate just one way for men and one way for women.
(…)
I don’t see any reason to propagate just one way for men and one way for women. People are diverse and I think it’s good for the whole society to embrace the diversity
It’s just that it’s a quality that men would lose, not that i care that much of this topic.
Men have testosterone, have sexual fantasy when they touch women, and read comics when they imagine themselves fighting.
Women have estrogens, in their fantasy they imagine themselves being touched, and read romantic novels when they’re preparing themselves for the unavoidable desire they’ll attract.
I’m keeping the two bad short list of three items above, but it’s mostly cultural, physical abilities are the only real abilities and don’t matter that much, lust is also natural, and beyond that i’m sure that we could find other physical differences between the two sexes, but the only thing worth saying would be that we could make differences between two groups without arrogantly saying that one of them(, ours generally,) is better than the other, this “tribal thinking” may be also at work in the differences of the two sex, and it works like that : “either what i’m doing is right, or it is wrong, and if it’s right you should imitate me”. Sometimes it goes as far as saying “i’ll force you to imitate me(, for your own good since you’re mistaken)”.
That’s at work internationally of course, but not only. My answer is to appreciate each other differences, internationally we should let other live their own way, even celebrate these differences and take pride in our diversity, we’re working for humanity as a whole while being in a (subgroup of a subgroup of a (…) of a subgroup of a )subgroup.
Beyond the fear of a peace preceding a betrayal and our downfall, what stops us is also the belief that “i am right so you should do like me, or prove me that i’m wrong and i’ll imitate you”. With this thought, we’ll end up the same(, perhaps only then will we regret our lack of diversity and try to revive it) ; instead, if we’re diverse, we’ll be able to progress by taking inspiration from the others, so we’ll continue to have this thought and it’ll be beneficial instead of being destructive, but this synthesis will only happen if we’re diverse enough to produce cultural/… idea(l)s/theories/… to burn through.
We can also become uniform and then encourage diversity within, i don’t like this option but it’d be better than a stagnation, if you don’t like a law then you should be able to live in a country without it, it’d be a better world i think.
In a few words, the destructive synthesis shouldn’t be quicker than the creation of diversity(, or else we’ll run out of “fuel”).
The colonization wasn’t a synthesis at all, so i’ll hope that we cherish what remains, capitalists and communists, islamists(, christians may have a christian country one day,) and atheists, royalists and (real )democrats(, there’s no democracy currently, but Switzerland is interesting), and hopefully environmentalists, and indigens from South America, Africa, and the vast Asia have a lot to bring us(, Russia also has a huge potential, but a low fertility rate, perhaps will they face a big change of culture if they shift to the East with the Mongols, Central Asia(, and siberians), probably not but) the world is vast so being only able to think of three oppositions(, capitalism//communism, Islamism//atheism, and democracy//royalism,) shows how much our world lacks diversity, am i wrong somewhere ? Feels like i’m too harsh in criticising our lack of diversity, and/or that i’m missing something, if you have something to add i’m interested.
Ok, I have more questions if you don’t mind: Do you interpret relieving your emotions by crying as being weak? Or perhaps feeling emotions as being weak? And do you find women more flawed, because they’re physically weaker than men?
Yeah, obviously, would you say that it’s a sign of strength ?
“Emotion” is a vague term. Some emotions like bravery(, often a borderline foolishness,) are assimilated with strength. Some emotions like the feeling of defeat, self-pity, the lack of resilience, the fear of authority/punishment that makes you betray others/ideals, that’s weak. Always interesting to see how Chelsea Manning is stronger than a lot of men in this regard. Men love to fight, so kinda appreciate to be hurt in a way, and are proud of their scars.
Some emotions are beautiful, such as the one expressed in poetry, others are ugly and you don’t need examples to get what i mean.
It’s easier to exclude men from external beauty and women from external strength than it is to exclude them from internal beauty and strength, respectively.
We have our qualities and flaws, some women are stronger than some men and some men are more beautiful( inside&outside) than women, and it’s reductive to stop at these two adjectives, as well as obviously erroneous to draw conclusion on an individual from generalities.
Here’s what i answered to a previous comment if you’re interested :
Admittedly, beauty is more useful in times of peace than strength, if i count the benefits(, women can give birth and that’s the most important thing in Nature), women have more of them than men, but if we can keep some of our qualities i won’t say no.
Thank you for taking your time and answering my questions. It’s always interesting to get to understand other people’s views a bit more. I have some quite different experiences from yours.
You’re asking me, whether I would say that crying is a sign of strength. I don’t view it neither as a sign of strength, nor as a sign of weakness. I take it as a natural reaction to overload of stress/emotion/pain. Being able to cry is physiologically beneficial (you get rid of cortisol) and psychologically it can help you process the things you’re going through more quickly. Trying to appear though by not crying seems counterproductive to me, but I understand in some cultures it is not socially acceptable to cry, especially for men.
When it comes to emotions, I agree it’s a vague term. I use the word for the very basic emotions of sadness, happiness, fear, anger, surprise and disgust, but you’re right that there’s a huge diversity and nuance. I think people need to understand their own emotions to be able to work with them consciously. If I was unable to regulate my emotions, it would be hard for me to make rational decisions. If I suppressed my emotions, I would still be influenced by them, but I would have no conscious control over them, which would again result in limiting my rationality severely.
I find the terms inner strength and beauty to be also very vague. I know a person, who’s super emotional in an uncontrollable way, you’d definitely find them weak, but when they were in a very tough situation, they proved to be totally unbreakable (they acted selflessly despite severe personal damage and were able to save several friends from a similar fate).
I agree with you that it’s reductive to stop on two adjectives. And when it comes to beauty and strength, I value intelligence and compassion much more in both men and women.
Generally, I think it’s a good thing there is a different mix of characteristics in different people. I don’t see any reason to propagate just one way for men and one way for women. People are diverse and I think it’s good for the whole society to embrace the diversity, because that makes the whole society stronger and more flexible, especially in a changing environment.
I’ll be glad to hear more of your thoughts!
To me, if you’re crying you’re admitting that something is stronger than you, that you’re powerless, and i still find it useless, i guess that i just have a bad image of it(, it can be beautiful though, like tears of joy, or of an emotion which isn’t defeat). But i clearly(, and subconsciously,) don’t treat men, women, or children, in the same point of view in regard to crying, i’d never think of saying “man up” to a woman hurt to the point of tears, yet i find it admirable when a man swallow his pain, and straighten his profile in order to act after whatever happened, that’s the common thinking, i’m not the weird one here(, even if my descriptions are very imperfect), but since modernity changed so many things they may end up suppressing the differences between men and women, or not, w/e.
On the contrary, suppressing your emotions helps to act rationally without being overwhelmed by them, in order to search for a solution or to act instead of self-pitying yourself, i guess i just don’t find an use to it, and yeah, it’s cultural, in the end whether you’re crying or not doesn’t matter compared to your other reactions, you’re sad and hurt and it’s unfair, but what can you do except fight back, women may use it in a discussion for different reasons, they’re hurt and it’s not useless to convey that in a discussion even if it’s unvolontary, for a man i would just find it shameful, men don’t have a lot of qualities, so let them at least be strong, a rock to cling onto, that won’t fail you, that’s kinda my thought i guess, i.d.k., and yeah, once again, it’s cultural, just as i think it’s a quality, a sign of reliability, at least an advantage we can have as men, 🤷♂️.
And i.m.o. there’s no real difference between emotions and reason, since our feelings can be explained rationally, we’re often saying that “reason ignore the heart’s own reasons”, but that’s not true, we are indeed influenced by subconscious feelings that we would be unable to analyse, but that’s a minor side and i don’t make a distinction between the cold reasoning and the hot emotions, i’m deciding with both and i think almost everyone does the same.
I don’t see how having cried can help you to see clearly, emotions are the fuel for reason, you’re hurt for yourself or someone and want to change things, if crying helps you see clearly afterwards then perhaps go ahead, i’ll continue to admire this “manly ideal” of an indestructible rock(, massive if possible). Women have their ideal of a perfect women, i have mine of a perfect man, at least physically(, and perhaps interestingly my ideal of a perfect women is almost exclusively about her personality).
100%, i realized it when i was listing my examples, and the other example you gave me is another very good one, you can indeed find effeminate/weak persons who are “tough motherf*ckers”, i didn’t give enough thought behind what “internally strong” may mean, and it also depends on the situation, it’s not because you’re weak or ugly internally at one time that you can’t act beautifully or strongly at another time.
Overall, i realize that i didn’t give much thought on this subject, i would have difficulties to enumerate the different opinions and haven’t read a single book on this topic(, nor watch a single video), so i don’t know, it’s just how i feel. Strength is good in a woman, at least mental strength, but i’m more looking for beautiful thoughts in women and strong thoughts in men, kinda, if i’m thinking in examples i would usually react in the same way if a man or a woman says something, but i’ve thought of a counter-example : if a woman saw an atrocity and reacted in a plaintive voice by saying “this is awful”(, and eventually grapple my sleeve if i want to exaggerate), i would find that natural, but if a man says it in the same tone i’d feel the need to say “man up”(, or just have this thought), not if it’s said in a voice of anger(/threat) though. I could also talk about a man acting “cute” and how that would make me uncomfortable(, instead of finding it, indeed, cute for women), i.d.k., it’s just cultural differences, there’s not much point in adding “arguments”.
B.t.w., it doesn’t come from me, i have a story and some good memories from it. But in a few words, i asked someone special(, ~9 years ago,) if he had a motto, and he told me that the masonic triangle is “Strength · Beauty · Wisdom”, i still haven’t checked if it’s true(, but discovered a few years later that it’s in the Kabbalah). It stayed in my mind and i naturally decided to apply it to men and women and divide it in internally//externally. Just to say that somewhere.
While reductive, i think it has a lot of truth in it.
It’s just that it’s a quality that men would lose, not that i care that much of this topic.
Men have testosterone, have sexual fantasy when they touch women, and read comics when they imagine themselves fighting.
Women have estrogens, in their fantasy they imagine themselves being touched, and read romantic novels when they’re preparing themselves for the unavoidable desire they’ll attract.
I’m keeping the two bad short list of three items above, but it’s mostly cultural, physical abilities are the only real abilities and don’t matter that much, lust is also natural, and beyond that i’m sure that we could find other physical differences between the two sexes, but the only thing worth saying would be that we could make differences between two groups without arrogantly saying that one of them(, ours generally,) is better than the other, this “tribal thinking” may be also at work in the differences of the two sex, and it works like that : “either what i’m doing is right, or it is wrong, and if it’s right you should imitate me”. Sometimes it goes as far as saying “i’ll force you to imitate me(, for your own good since you’re mistaken)”.
That’s at work internationally of course, but not only. My answer is to appreciate each other differences, internationally we should let other live their own way, even celebrate these differences and take pride in our diversity, we’re working for humanity as a whole while being in a (subgroup of a subgroup of a (…) of a subgroup of a )subgroup.
Beyond the fear of a peace preceding a betrayal and our downfall, what stops us is also the belief that “i am right so you should do like me, or prove me that i’m wrong and i’ll imitate you”. With this thought, we’ll end up the same(, perhaps only then will we regret our lack of diversity and try to revive it) ; instead, if we’re diverse, we’ll be able to progress by taking inspiration from the others, so we’ll continue to have this thought and it’ll be beneficial instead of being destructive, but this synthesis will only happen if we’re diverse enough to produce cultural/… idea(l)s/theories/… to burn through.
We can also become uniform and then encourage diversity within, i don’t like this option but it’d be better than a stagnation, if you don’t like a law then you should be able to live in a country without it, it’d be a better world i think.
In a few words, the destructive synthesis shouldn’t be quicker than the creation of diversity(, or else we’ll run out of “fuel”).
The colonization wasn’t a synthesis at all, so i’ll hope that we cherish what remains, capitalists and communists, islamists(, christians may have a christian country one day,) and atheists, royalists and (real )democrats(, there’s no democracy currently, but Switzerland is interesting), and hopefully environmentalists, and indigens from South America, Africa, and the vast Asia have a lot to bring us(, Russia also has a huge potential, but a low fertility rate, perhaps will they face a big change of culture if they shift to the East with the Mongols, Central Asia(, and siberians), probably not but) the world is vast so being only able to think of three oppositions(, capitalism//communism, Islamism//atheism, and democracy//royalism,) shows how much our world lacks diversity, am i wrong somewhere ? Feels like i’m too harsh in criticising our lack of diversity, and/or that i’m missing something, if you have something to add i’m interested.