I’m struggling with everything on this article. On the one hand anytime a hostage has been freed, that’s good news. On the other, at what cost.
40 000 dead. That’s the easy stat. Amputations are also incredibly high. Most of them kids and performed without anesthetic.
This is the first time the IDF has rescued hostages.
So I’m sitting here with my initial feeling of ‘oh, that’s good news’ ,and then I think about the wider picture and context, and it doesn’t seem so good anymore.
Nah, that was the one that Egypt fucked up. There had not been an actual agreed upon hostage transfer since the first one. Hamas also won’t give actual information on the hostages. This whole thing is just war crimes the whole way down.
So you think we should negotiate with terrorists? Give them something to make them stop what they’re doing today, and they definitely won’t commit more terrorism later in the hope of getting more things later.
Spain did successfully negotiate with ETA, and there is no more ETA today. Colombia’s government negotiated with the FARC, and the immense majority of the FARC have gotten peacefully integrated in their country’s parliamentary system.
If I looked into those organizations, I would bet they were probably at the point of talking reasonable concessions, and probably resembled a proper government, albeit radical or militant.
That would require Hamas to care about Palestinians. Their leadership is a bunch of wealthy shitheads living it up in the UAE. They hold a dictatorship over Palestine and refuse to have elections.
To actually get Hamas there, you probably need to target the rich people giving orders.
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives. Just look at when they agreed to a ceasefire and traded hostages for prisoners: each hostage was worth multiple prisoners released by Israel.
This is also noticeable when Hamas use their own population as human shields, exemplified by when they hide their soldiers and weapons in hospitals and schools. Or when they blend in with civilians on purpose by not using any combatant uniform like the IDF do. They really don’t care for their own civilians. These are only useful for acting as human shields and, if they’re killed or injured, strike a pose for NatGeo-style photos in their attempts to appeal to western sentiment.
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives.
You should just stop right there. If your logic depends on saying “they actually don’t value their lives as much as others” then please stop and ask “what the hell is wrong with yourself?”. People who think like this probably value their life least of all. /s
When I see how easily the Hamas uses their own population as sacrifices, I have doubts they really value their lives. Remember: the Gazan population elected the Hamas with more than 60% of the votes. It’s not too farfetched to say a significant part of the Gazans think like the Hamas in terms of sacrifice, and by extension, how they value their lives.
You don’t believe me? Those who are immersed in islamist ideology think quite differently from people of christian heritage (even if they’re not christian themselves, but they inherit a set of values). For the islamists, self-sacrifice if a good thing if done for a holy cause. That’s what motivated the plane terrorists from 9/11: their religion made them believe that what they were doing was just. And as a reward, they’d have the company of multiple virgins in paradise.
In the western countries, due to the inherited christain values, people value life and reject self-sacrifice. Suicide is considered a sin, because the person is throwing away the body given by God, which is a holy thing. That’s why the USA and other west-aligned countries pressure Israel to preserve the life of innocent Gazans: that’s what best aligns with their moral values. If a bank is being robbed with the use of hostages, the police will do its best to preserve the life of the innocent, even negotiate with the robbers if necessary.
That’s a way of thinking that’s the polar opposite of the muslims. For them, if the cause is holy, self-sacrifice is allowed and encouraged. They’re indoctrinated in these values since they’re children. What the Hamas is doing is exploiting the western values for their benefit. That’s why they took hostages, because they knew it would be a huge leverage against Israel. And that’s why they’re always flaunting the number of casualities (which are obviously inflated, because it helps their goals), in an attempt to reach the western countries’ moral values and turn it into pressure for Isreal accept an indefinite ceasefire agreement, even a bad one.
Consider this: if the roles were reversed: Gaza had immense millitary strenght and Israel was the poor country, the Gazans would invade Isreal in a heartbeat and would care much less about Isrealli innocent civilians: for them the cause is holy, so it is justified to kill indiscriminately.
I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen any independent verification that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools for bases, but I’m positive that there’s been debunked Israeli reports that schools and hospitals have been used as Hama’s bases.
Same thing for human shields. IDF admits to using Palestinians as shields. To my knowledge, there’s no Hamas equivalent.
This ‘war’ isn’t about Hamas anyways. If it was, there wouldn’t be 1000 people killed in the west bank. Hamas isn’t in the west bank. Why is the IDF letting people kill Palestinians in the west bank?
Three months ago the IDF also rescued 3 hostages by killing many civilians. They bomb entire neighbourhoods to rubble as a distraction mechanism for their teams to go in.
Imagine how much resources hamas spent on keeping these hostages and how many lives could be saved if they just released them all before the ground operation was started.
They don’t have any leverage, because the people calling the shots in Israel (and to be clear, that is the likes of Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, who want effectively no Arabs river to sea, and hence Netanyahu, who I think would do just about any atrocity no matter how abhorrent just to stay in power and out of jail) value the pretext to invade far more than they value the lives of the hostages.
So the hostages do not actually give Hamas any leverage over Israel - hence why Israel is not willing to agree to anything. Hamas should not have taken civilians hostage or targeted civilians in the first place, and they should release them. That is still an ongoing war crime, even if it is overshadowed by bigger ones being perpetrated by the Israeli side.
Hamas never had a chance of winning on military might.
The best chance for a good outcome for the Palestinian people is through raising awareness of the plight of the Palestinians, resulting in international pressure. The pressure against Israel arising now is because of the severity of Israel’s war crimes, while Hamas’ war crimes are one of the key talking points used to justify not taking action. Hamas could help Palestine win the information space war by taking the high road; winning a military war is futile for them.
While it is not fair to punish Palestinian civilians for the war crimes of Hamas just because the interests of Palestinian civilians are aligned to Hamas’ goals, there are many people who don’t see it that way. Palestinian statehood (or a non-apartheid one-state solution) would now get far more international support if the Palestinian militants shifted to peaceful resistance.
What leverage? You’re saying hostages are needed to save hamas members? Well that seems to be working pretty well huh? Remind me again why they were taken in the first place?
You should become a negotiator.
What negotiations? It was a perfect opportunity to show that your cause is a good one, and not to Israel. Instead they kept the hostages… For what purpose? To have “leverage”? Well let’s see how that will help them with anything. Maybe there will be more news about released hostages that you could again associate with Israel trying to release its civilians, not with hamas doing right things.
I repeat: that violence did not serve the purpose and it was never meant to. It’s useless to justify their actions based on their sufferings alone. It’s obvious hamas never seeked anything except violence.
I’m struggling with everything on this article. On the one hand anytime a hostage has been freed, that’s good news. On the other, at what cost. 40 000 dead. That’s the easy stat. Amputations are also incredibly high. Most of them kids and performed without anesthetic. This is the first time the IDF has rescued hostages. So I’m sitting here with my initial feeling of ‘oh, that’s good news’ ,and then I think about the wider picture and context, and it doesn’t seem so good anymore.
And half a dozen months ago they could have had a ceasefire to have them released, along with the ones that STILL aren’t released.
Nah, that was the one that Egypt fucked up. There had not been an actual agreed upon hostage transfer since the first one. Hamas also won’t give actual information on the hostages. This whole thing is just war crimes the whole way down.
“we don’t negotiate with terrorists” and that stance is “non-negotiable.” If only these terrorists would just stop and do what we want.
Well from the other side the IDF are the terrorists, since they’re terrorising Gaza indiscriminately.
So you think we should negotiate with terrorists? Give them something to make them stop what they’re doing today, and they definitely won’t commit more terrorism later in the hope of getting more things later.
Maybe just stick to eating ass, Adam.
Spain did successfully negotiate with ETA, and there is no more ETA today. Colombia’s government negotiated with the FARC, and the immense majority of the FARC have gotten peacefully integrated in their country’s parliamentary system.
If I looked into those organizations, I would bet they were probably at the point of talking reasonable concessions, and probably resembled a proper government, albeit radical or militant.
Hamas is not at that point.
So, how many bombs still need to be dropped on Palestine to get them there?
That would require Hamas to care about Palestinians. Their leadership is a bunch of wealthy shitheads living it up in the UAE. They hold a dictatorship over Palestine and refuse to have elections.
To actually get Hamas there, you probably need to target the rich people giving orders.
So you don’t know anything about those terrorist organisations, don’t want to read up on them, and instead just assume.
Maybe you’re right, the world tries to negotiate with israel all the time to no avail.
I wouldn’t negotiate with Israel either
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives. Just look at when they agreed to a ceasefire and traded hostages for prisoners: each hostage was worth multiple prisoners released by Israel.
This is also noticeable when Hamas use their own population as human shields, exemplified by when they hide their soldiers and weapons in hospitals and schools. Or when they blend in with civilians on purpose by not using any combatant uniform like the IDF do. They really don’t care for their own civilians. These are only useful for acting as human shields and, if they’re killed or injured, strike a pose for NatGeo-style photos in their attempts to appeal to western sentiment.
You should just stop right there. If your logic depends on saying “they actually don’t value their lives as much as others” then please stop and ask “what the hell is wrong with yourself?”. People who think like this probably value their life least of all. /s
When I see how easily the Hamas uses their own population as sacrifices, I have doubts they really value their lives. Remember: the Gazan population elected the Hamas with more than 60% of the votes. It’s not too farfetched to say a significant part of the Gazans think like the Hamas in terms of sacrifice, and by extension, how they value their lives.
Just know that this accusation you make is a confession of your views and you should investigate what that says about yourself on your own.
You don’t believe me? Those who are immersed in islamist ideology think quite differently from people of christian heritage (even if they’re not christian themselves, but they inherit a set of values). For the islamists, self-sacrifice if a good thing if done for a holy cause. That’s what motivated the plane terrorists from 9/11: their religion made them believe that what they were doing was just. And as a reward, they’d have the company of multiple virgins in paradise.
In the western countries, due to the inherited christain values, people value life and reject self-sacrifice. Suicide is considered a sin, because the person is throwing away the body given by God, which is a holy thing. That’s why the USA and other west-aligned countries pressure Israel to preserve the life of innocent Gazans: that’s what best aligns with their moral values. If a bank is being robbed with the use of hostages, the police will do its best to preserve the life of the innocent, even negotiate with the robbers if necessary.
That’s a way of thinking that’s the polar opposite of the muslims. For them, if the cause is holy, self-sacrifice is allowed and encouraged. They’re indoctrinated in these values since they’re children. What the Hamas is doing is exploiting the western values for their benefit. That’s why they took hostages, because they knew it would be a huge leverage against Israel. And that’s why they’re always flaunting the number of casualities (which are obviously inflated, because it helps their goals), in an attempt to reach the western countries’ moral values and turn it into pressure for Isreal accept an indefinite ceasefire agreement, even a bad one.
Consider this: if the roles were reversed: Gaza had immense millitary strenght and Israel was the poor country, the Gazans would invade Isreal in a heartbeat and would care much less about Isrealli innocent civilians: for them the cause is holy, so it is justified to kill indiscriminately.
I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen any independent verification that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools for bases, but I’m positive that there’s been debunked Israeli reports that schools and hospitals have been used as Hama’s bases.
Same thing for human shields. IDF admits to using Palestinians as shields. To my knowledge, there’s no Hamas equivalent.
This ‘war’ isn’t about Hamas anyways. If it was, there wouldn’t be 1000 people killed in the west bank. Hamas isn’t in the west bank. Why is the IDF letting people kill Palestinians in the west bank?
Three months ago the IDF also rescued 3 hostages by killing many civilians. They bomb entire neighbourhoods to rubble as a distraction mechanism for their teams to go in.
Those human shields had it coming. /S or I guess they’re human bait now?
Imagine how much resources hamas spent on keeping these hostages and how many lives could be saved if they just released them all before the ground operation was started.
Netanyahu said since November that even if all hostages were released he was going to invade anyway and not stop the war.
Even more reason to release them all then, and I’m appalled by how hamas was that stupid to not realize that.
Ahh yes, give away all your leverage when your enemy already stated he will murder you all.
You should become a negotiator.
They don’t have any leverage, because the people calling the shots in Israel (and to be clear, that is the likes of Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, who want effectively no Arabs river to sea, and hence Netanyahu, who I think would do just about any atrocity no matter how abhorrent just to stay in power and out of jail) value the pretext to invade far more than they value the lives of the hostages.
So the hostages do not actually give Hamas any leverage over Israel - hence why Israel is not willing to agree to anything. Hamas should not have taken civilians hostage or targeted civilians in the first place, and they should release them. That is still an ongoing war crime, even if it is overshadowed by bigger ones being perpetrated by the Israeli side.
Hamas never had a chance of winning on military might.
The best chance for a good outcome for the Palestinian people is through raising awareness of the plight of the Palestinians, resulting in international pressure. The pressure against Israel arising now is because of the severity of Israel’s war crimes, while Hamas’ war crimes are one of the key talking points used to justify not taking action. Hamas could help Palestine win the information space war by taking the high road; winning a military war is futile for them.
While it is not fair to punish Palestinian civilians for the war crimes of Hamas just because the interests of Palestinian civilians are aligned to Hamas’ goals, there are many people who don’t see it that way. Palestinian statehood (or a non-apartheid one-state solution) would now get far more international support if the Palestinian militants shifted to peaceful resistance.
What leverage? You’re saying hostages are needed to save hamas members? Well that seems to be working pretty well huh? Remind me again why they were taken in the first place?
What negotiations? It was a perfect opportunity to show that your cause is a good one, and not to Israel. Instead they kept the hostages… For what purpose? To have “leverage”? Well let’s see how that will help them with anything. Maybe there will be more news about released hostages that you could again associate with Israel trying to release its civilians, not with hamas doing right things.
This guy will start calling all of us hamas soon
Just think about how many lives could have been saved if Israel worked towards a two state solution
Yeah. October 7 surely didn’t make them start working on that, did it?
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I repeat: that violence did not serve the purpose and it was never meant to. It’s useless to justify their actions based on their sufferings alone. It’s obvious hamas never seeked anything except violence.
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Start reading what you’re replying to, please.
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Yes because Oct 7 happened apropos of nothing
You understand. It happened apropos, not in order to solve problems.
Use your words
Trying my best as a non-native. Feel free to hate my way of speaking.
Not trying to hate, just not understanding what point you were trying to make.