What’s incredibly infuriating is not only did the police force fail these kids, but the community did as well.
They voted again for the people behind these complete failures who shoveled insane amounts of tax dollars to these cowards.
I guess that’s the kind of policing Uvalde wants 🤷♂️
Not sure why anyone would want to live in a town like that though.Well the kids don’t have a choice or a vote. Some, permanently now.
And that’s the fucking problem with all this shit. “Guess that’s what they want”.
It doesn’t matter what they fucking want. Cops violate protocol. Cops got children killed. Cops SHOULD have gone straight to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect your pension.
I’m just saying, if my kid had gotten killed in that shooting, I would make it my life’s mission to eliminate every cop that didn’t do anything. Through my own means of force if necessary.
Reminds me of the Douglas Adam’s bit
[Ford said] “… On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.” “Odd,” said Arthur. “I thought you said it was a democracy.” “I did,” said Ford. “It is.” “So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t the people get rid of the lizards?” “It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.” “You mean they actually vote for the lizards?” “Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.” “But,” said Arthur, going in for the big one again, “why?” “Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in.
Brilliant, I love Douglas Adams
Ah, so they aren’t getting the protection they need but they are getting the protection they deserve.
Politics are more complicated than that. Nobody deserves to have their children murdered because of their mistakes, even if it’s an expected outcome.
Yes. But if having their children murdered still isn’t enough to make gun control an important issue then… what can even be done?
With every other crime (not done by rich white dudes) Lemmy thinks it’s a social issue. Why not safety nets and mental health assistance?
“but Dems eat babies!”
All too often, the police act like wannabe Rambos - charging in with guns drawn, willing to shoot or kill any suspects in their way. The ONE time that this might have been welcomed and they decided to sit on the side and do nothing. Okay, maybe not nothing. They harassed parents who were screaming about their kids being killed.
Same thing with gun nuts defending the country from tyranny. Turns out when tyranny shows up wearing a red cap, defending the constitution isn’t urgent.
I’m a “gun nut”. And if I see any red caps patrolling my voting place? Well, I’ll just take a quick trip to the truck and back. And then we shall have a chat about just exactly what the fuck they think they’re doing. If I have to stand there with a, “ALL are safe to vote here!” sign around my neck, I will do so. (That actually isn’t a bad idea!)
That ain’t bravado. I’d be scared shitless, shaking in my boots. But I know history, I’m old enough not to GAF and my little kids are young enough that I need to defend their future.
(As you might gather, I’m in a strange place for an American voter.)
Hey I’d stand with you. I haven’t held a gun in about 25 years, but I’d be there.
willing to shoot or kill any unarmed suspects
Time and time again: They’ll gladly act when they can use overwhelming force. But when they are up against a similarly armed individual (ar-15 firing similar rounds to the military, body armor, etc), they cower in fear. Sometimes SWAT will actually act, but usually in situations where they can more or less level the building with tanks and explosives.
Its one of the best arguments for gun control. Because if we didn’t have ready access to assault rifles that were literally designed for military purposes and that fire one of the nastier rounds in existence*, then maybe “a good guy with a gun” would have any effect at all.
And just in case anyone thinks bump stocks or illegal modifications will let them stand up to the army: the army has “real” tanks, air support, drones, and a lot more explosives per soldier. You won’t stand a chance and, if anything, a concealable pistol chambered for one of the small caliber/high velocity rounds is more effective for a resistance force.
*: If anyone hasn’t read this before, it is well worth the horror. Obviously lots of content warnings https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-damage-to-human-body/
It’s so odd to see people putting words and ideas in my mouth. OTOH, I’m used to it.
No one thinks they can fight the military, no one has these bizarre fantasies. At least not among us “normal” gun nuts. I consume a fair deal of gun content on YouTube, and while I may be biased because I shy away from the right-wingers, I get not a single whiff of what you’re talking about.
Can’t find my old post in /r/liberalgunowners, but no one imagines a toe-to-toe fight. The US military, and even the cops, depend on civilian smarts, labor and supply chains. And those are easily disrupted. People point to Vietnam and Afghanistan as examples of poorly armed locals successfully fighting back. And those fights weren’t in our literal backyards among our neighbors!
But to bring it closer to home; What does this particular lib do when the local Brown Shirts come knocking to disarm me “for my own good”? That seems a very real thing to me. So do I lay down and get on the train later? Or… what?
Thought experiment; Let’s magically take every gun from every citizen excepting cops and military. How long you think until the GOP drops the hammer and goes full-on fascist? Deterrence is a thing. MAD got me through the 70s and 80s.
As to your link on the lethality of AR-15 rounds, paywalled, but I’m familiar. .223 or 5.56 rounds are tiny and hella fast. (My smart-assed take here: https://imgur.com/a/kolUESz.) The article’s take is for people unfamiliar with the horrific damage rounds of all sorts impart. tl;dr: Bullets don’t punch holes like an icepick. Shoot an empty vs. full can of beer with a .22, you’ll get it quick. A bullet is the response of last resort.
(And BTW, an AR-15 is illegal to hunt with in some states because the round is not lethal enough for a clean kill.)
And yes, the AR-15 is a military rifle. The title, and possibly the poster (don’t know his work), is revolting, but none the less, this is a solid history lesson. I had not thought all that through, but yes, the US civilian has always had better arms than the US military. The “military rifle/round” argument falls flat with me.
Look at it through a modern, more liberal lens and say, “I sure wish the cops could outgun us all! They’re perfectly trustworthy utilizing deadly force!”
I love this comedian’s take on the NRA “we can take on the military with our guns” types: https://youtu.be/WOSqCjMRXWA?si=TTFMx6fLMx_akDYl
Time and time again: They’ll gladly act when they can use overwhelming force. But when they are up against a similarly armed individual (ar-15 firing similar rounds to the military, body armor, etc), they cower in fear.
You mean twice? Uvalde and Cloward? I can think of other times where regular street cops did in fact charge in right away even in the face of killers armed with AR-15s.
Because if we didn’t have ready access to assault rifles that were literally designed for military purposes and that fire one of the nastier rounds in existence
The .223 / 5.56mm isn’t even CLOSE to one of the nastier rounds in existence. It’s an intermediate cartridge with low power relative to real rifle calibers like the 7.62, .308, or 30-06. At 100 yards or less, the distance most mass shootings take place, even a 12 Gauge shotgun is vastly more destructive.
…then maybe “a good guy with a gun” would have any effect at all.
Plenty of “Good Guys with a Gun” have ended shooters armed with shotguns and rifles. The issue isn’t one of weaponary but of numbers, there just AREN’T that many overall and the odds of there being one in the right place at the right time are nearly zero. They can be amazingly effective when it happens though.
And just in case anyone thinks bump stocks or illegal modifications will let them stand up to the army: the army has “real” tanks, air support, drones, and a lot more explosives per soldier.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Syria…the list of conflicts that show this to be false as very long. Full Auto fire, whether through illegal modification or Bump Stock is stupid anyway and even the US Military has put controls on its use.
…a concealable pistol chambered for one of the small caliber/high velocity rounds is more effective for a resistance force.
It’s so great that it’s commonly used by literally no resistance force anywhere in the world. It is commonly used by Concealed Carry Weapons Permit holders though…like the one in the link up above.
Nothing brings the gun nuts out quite like some dead kids.
I know its hard when someone shows up with actual data to counter false opinion but Ad Hominem is never a good response.
Cute little comments score internet points, but you’re not helping me change the world. In fact, you’re only pushing liberal gun owners like me away. Was that your intention?
You are not helping the debate. You are only hurting. Engage honestly, and be willing to listen, as I am, or STFU.
Yeah. Valuing firearms over human life isn’t a leftist, or even liberal, thing. It is a monstrous. And I am not going to comrpomise on human life. Because, again, monstrous.
Also,if you can stop masturbating furiously over dead kids for a few seconds, you might see that I was actaully arguing for a “common sense” gun law of just banning assault rifles/AR-15s on account of the .223/5.56 round having significantly higher penetration over most handgun rounds AND being spectacularly monstrous when moving through human tissue. But apparently, unless people are protecting your gun’s rights, they are “not listening”
But hey, thanks for being yet another gun nut who wants to make it clear that nothing is more important than THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS (and shoot kindergartners).
stop masturbating furiously over dead kids for a few seconds
Again, you’re hurting us all with shit like this. Now we are two more people who cannot have a sane conversation, cannot solve this, work for a better world.
nothing is more important than THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS (and shoot kindergartners)
The 2A exists, cannot be realistically overturned, and the courts uphold it to be a personal right to gun ownership. That statements are facts, not opinions. Those facts must be met head on, without the emotional vitriol you bring to the table.
Great thing to note! My 70’s elementary science teacher changed my life for the better, in 100 different ways. One thing she taught, every damned year, was “opinion vs. fact”. And the idea that emotions had no bearing on factual evidence. I was bored stupid. “Fine. Who doesn’t get this by now?”
You don’t get it.
Nah, it’s the loud opinion in these threads that all gun owners hate children or something because they don’t support “common sense gun control.” Nuanced discussion isn’t allowed, only name calling group hate against gun owners is.
Piles of dead kids because of a complete lack of gun control
Gun nuts: Excuse me, you are using incorrect terminology and guns are actually amazing and we need more good guys with a gun
At this point? Nobody is saying the gun nuts hate children. We are increasingly worried that you are getting off on the sight of dead kids.
I feel ya. We can’t talk in forums like this because of posts like OP’s. Nothing will get better, only more polarized, and ironically, more death.
I think the issue is that liberals have an ignorant view of guns and gun owners. I used to, and ignorance is OK! But FFS, be willing to learn and engage. I call you on your BS, you call me on mine, we learn.
When we bring facts to the table, facts that can be argued in good faith, we’re immediately called baby killers. That’s not helpful. In fact, it’s harmful.
Those kids exhibited poise and bravery that the cops didn’t and couldn’t even comprehend. To no avail. I don’t know how much more can be said about this incident that hasn’t already been, but I wish a pox on every one of those useless officers. I wish upon them the most horrible things that can’t even be spoken of. What a way for kids to learn that adults, even the most trusted ones, can be stupid and disappointing.
I don’t spend very much time on hate, but I’ll make an exception for them.
I think there’s more that can be said, especially as more information is released.
I know I learned more about the experience of the kids from this story, and how much some of the cops feel failed by their organizations.
I value the kids’ perspectives so much because they are the ones whose voices (probably rightly so) have been missing from the story until now. To hear the kids sobbing on the bus after finally getting out…the girl who only wanted to let the adults know that she tried to help her friends. It destroys me to hear she, and others, had to be the ones to give love and care to those around them instead of the adults they could hear on the other side of the door.
Civilian or cop, and I hate that sort of distinction, if you wish to carry a firearm you must understand safety, lethality, practice under pressure, and fuck me, 100 other variables. If you don’t want to learn all that? Then don’t pick up a weapon.
This lib has an AR-15. Ironically sold to me via other libs chanting, “BAN!” after Uvalde. Meh, might as well get grandfathered if I ever want one. Good job guys?
It’s almost boring to shoot with a dialed in red-dot sight. I ain’t Annie Oakley, but I can easily put steel on target when shaking all over. I can swap a mag while shitting myself. I practice.
So they were up against a kid with a good weapon, equally armed and presumably better trained? And children’s lives were on the line?
If you were a cop on that day, in those circumstances, it was your fucking responsibility to engage. And yes, that might mean your personal extinction. That might be the consequences when you pick up a weapon. If you can’t handle that? I got no problem. But pick up a rifle? Go fucking fight.
ACAB and many are also cowards.
I would have a hard time coming up with a singular more salient reason to defund the police than Uvalde.
we have cops in schools “to protect students” but all they ever do is just arrest mostly black kids for offenses that used to just get you sent to the principal’s office, and when the big bad shooter does show up the school cop just runs away and coplovers defend them saying “they have no duty to protect” and “it was dangerous”
“they have no duty to protect”
And they are correct when they say that. Police was invented to protect the property of the rich - that’s their only real duty. Everything else is propaganda to normalize the presence of this violent paramilitary that was fascist long before Mussolini gave it a name.
Cops not following their training?! What the? Who could have possibly foreseen such a thing?! This is completely and utterly shocking! I am absolutely flabbergasted by the news that cops don’t follow rules that they spend tons of money every year getting trained on! What a complete surprise and I’m sure no one ever in the history of the world would have ever predicted!
You’re right and it sounds like there’s a large lack of training in the first place. The fact that the schools do far more training and that the kids were left to bleed out because the cops assumed if kids were hurt they would’ve heard kids crying or screaming (they were silent because they were taught not to make any noise during an active shooter event), makes my blood boil.
That little town’s school board has its own police force, led at the time of the shooting by Chief “I got no radio” Arredondo (who has since resigned). Note that this is police just for the schools, not for the whole town. They were very well funded in every respect for the size of their duties, and already pretty much paramilitary in terms of equipment the day they went in and did nothing but listen to the screams of the kids.
If there really was a lack of training – and I wouldn’t bet on it myself – then it’s on nobody but themselves, because they had the money and a whole lot of shiny new equipment.
At the time of the shooting there were a number of contemporary news articles that discussed the outsize police budget Uvalde already had in place, something like 40% of the entire town budget. They should be pretty easy to find if you’re interested. No excuse for no training – if in fact there was a lack thereof, and I kinda don’t believe that myself.
I’m still stunned. Shooter massacres kids and this nation does nothing. Again. Unreal but unfortunately not unexpected.
The UK jumped into action the moment they had their first school shooting. The US got mad at anyone who suggested we do anything. And still does.
So much so that even then President pisses their panties if they have to even mention the word firearms.
Students should receive 100% wage garnish from all the cops and the cops be forced back to school until the cops are able to graduate.
Given what we’ve seen with cops, given their fights that have made it to the Supreme Court where they argued successfully that they have no duty to protect and serve the public, I’d say the cops did follow their Active Shooter Protocol.
The state of policing in this country: literal children are better at following rules (including under pressure) than cops.
Fuck.
Wasn’t this known from day 1? We had footage like 2 years ago? Nothing happened, nothing will happen. Just get used to it.
Actually something will happen. Other cops will see you can just stand back without consequences and will do likewise.
Something else will happen too. In just a few more years the survivors will be old enough to advocate for better gun control laws in this country and then be harassed by Marjorie Taylor Green and others like her for *pretending *to be victims of a school shooting. Just like the victims of the Parkland School shooting were.
If enough of them live long enough to experience a future. Saddest sentence I’ve written in a long time.
I really feel for the reporters who watched this footage to write this. I can barely read the word Uvalde without feeling despair and rage, and to watch it happen again and again must have been incredibly hard.
ACAB, cops were cowardly pieces of shit.
A counterexample to this is the cops in the Covenant School shooting in Nashville that happened not too long afterward. You can find the body cam footage and see cops just doing their job correctly. I know we see a lot of new about our cops failing to do their duty in the US, but every once in a while you can see them doing their job right.
My god, how they showed out. Not a fan of the police, ACAB guy mostly, but holy shit that was professional.
They were called to engage, as happens with policing. They arrived quickly, asked smart questions of bystanders, and rolled hard.
I won’t link the video, but it will be shown around as a “how to handle shit” lesson for decades.
There was another one where a lone cop is talking to some kids at a mall, hears gunfire and runs towards it. He engaged and removed the threat perfectly professionally.
Uvalde made us all sick. If you’re entrusted with the protection of the public, you run towards the “bad thing happening”. Fuck me, most parameds are braver than those cops that day.
And no, it ain’t easy. Dad and I saw a man smeared off the highway. Dad ran inside to call 911 (pre-cell phone days). Yelled at me to check the man. Fuck me, I was 21. Seeing his head whip around the cabin, I expected a blood bath. Fuck am I gonna do? Stand there shaking while a man is dying?
Took me 5-10 seconds of indecision, and I ran to him. Nothing to see, but he was out cold, couldn’t touch him unless he was bleeding out. Later found his brain whipped around his brain case, died a day later. Wear your seatbelts kids!
Rambling here. Pick up a gun in the first place? You made a choice that might cost your life. Go fight, or put it back down and forever be a coward.
I’d seen this earlier, but didn’t read the article until tonight. The sadness and anger are each far too familiar.
At this point an AI police force would probably be safer and more effective, as distopian as it sounds
YOU HAVE TWENTY SECONDS TO COMPLY.
Given the propensity of gpt to « fill the gaps » and « follow the narrative » what’s the benefit you expect ? Inability to hold a gun since it doesn’t have hands?
Also same difference due to training bias of models; they would likely flag the black guy given it would be fed crafted training material the same way your cops are biased…
I for one welcome our AI Overlords. Either that or an alien hivemind.
Hashtag TheBorgDidNothingWrong
