Feddit.org announced today that they are changing their rules to match German law despite their server not being hosted in Germany.

Feddit.org now bans

  • The sentence “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”

  • Comparing Israel to the Nazis

  • Calls to end Zionism

  • Calling for the dissolution of Israel

And much more. The full original post can be found here, or

Click here for full text of original post:

Hi.

In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.

While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.

And with that, let’s go:

In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called “Reason of State” introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as “Israel-related antisemitism”.

Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it’s not that fun.

There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.

If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:

  • Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
  • Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
  • Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
  • The slogan “from the river…”
  • Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
  • … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis

Comments will not be removed for the following:

  • Denouncing genocide.
  • Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
  • Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
  • Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.

If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I’d also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @[email protected] account (which all mods have access to).

To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).

  • A news report:

    Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o’clock in the morning. A loud, continuous “banging” against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. […] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK “storm” past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. […] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student’s profile: "From the river […]

  • A legal treatise:

    In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, “the slogan ‘From the River to the Sea’ (in German or other languages)” is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. […] the current legal situation [regarding “Denial of Israel’s right to exist”] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor’s office.

  • Press release from the previous government:

    In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel’s existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas’s actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of “approval of criminal acts” under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).

  • Another news report

    In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. “In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event”, several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions …)

  • Overview Germany in 2024 by Amnesty International

  • Overview Germany in 2024 by Human Rights Watch

federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)

  • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
    1183·
    9 days ago

    Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.

    Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.

    Zionism means colonialism not just in practice, but from its very inception:

    • deathbird@mander.xyz
      4·
      7 days ago

      And yet every self-declared pro-Zionist I’ve talked to says Zionism is just the right of the state of Israel to exist, and so being anti-Zionist is being for the destruction of the state, and being for the destruction of the state is being for the death or dispossession of every person in the state.

      I think the German state is probably more inclined to interpret discussion of Zionism the way the pro-Zionists I’ve spoken to have describe the term.

      I think the historical description in the text that you link is accurate, but if you’re trying to argue that Germans should be able to critique Zionism however they want because of that, it’s like literally getting into an argument about the literal meaning of literally with people who use literally to mean figuratively, but instead of a random teenager or twee linguistic descriptivist, you are arguing with the state.

    • poVoq@slrpnk.net
      326·
      8 days ago

      Yes, and you are free to critizise Zionism for that on Feddit.org. The legal problem is not that, but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews as a shortcut and leave it to courts to decide later if that was justified or not.

      • acargitz@lemmy.ca
        31·
        7 days ago

        Oh I see. Which is why the admins/mods of Feddit.org are also publicly coming out criticizing the German government for this crackdown on nuanced speech, right? Right?

      • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
        91·
        7 days ago

        but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews

        Sounds like they very much do play word games then.

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
        371·
        8 days ago

        They clearly state in one of the rules that I just linked, that calling for an end to zionism is a bannable offense.

        The german state is full of witch-hunters and its people have learned nothing.

        • poVoq@slrpnk.net
          227·
          8 days ago

          Yes and as I explained already there is a very specific legal reason for that, but this doesn’t mean you can’t critizise Zionism or call it a terrible settler-colonialist project.

          As for learning from past mistakes… I think you of all people should not throw the first stone there 😅

          • anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            261·
            8 days ago

            there is a very specific legal reason for that

            A misguided or intentionally malicious reason, for what the effect of that law is. Codifying into law the conflation of Judaism/ethnic Jewish identity with zionism is itself antisemitic. Calling for the end of Zionism isn’t the same as calling for the end of Jews or Judaism. What is the use of being allowed to criticize Zionism the ideology when you’re not also allowed to advocate for its end?

            “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology.” <- Ok “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel as a Zionist project should be dissolved in favor of a single-state that provides equal rights for Palestinians” <- Not ok, somehow?

            The law as written only allows abstract and dissociated critique of Zionism, but forbids any criticism that comes too close to threatening Israel’s existence as a ethno-nationalist state. That’s a huge problem.

            • poVoq@slrpnk.net
              316·
              8 days ago

              I didn’t make those laws, and I agree that the German government should make more of a distinction between antisemitism and anti-zionism. But it doesn’t and honestly in your above example you could just say:

              “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”

              An no one would object 🤷

              This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.

              • anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                261·
                8 days ago

                “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”

                Except the moderation rule feddit has implemented does not allow for this statement, unless you specifically say that jews deserve equal rights in a single-state solution - which is similar to those who respond to ‘black lives matter’ by saying ‘but all lives matter’. Saying ‘Palestinians deserve equal rights’ wouldn’t be necessary if equal rights were already afforded them, and the point of making that statement is to draw attention to the fact that they currently aren’t

                This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.

                Nobody who is advocating for Palestinian liberation uses the word “destroy” or ‘destruction’ when referring to the dissolution of Israel - I only ever see those words used by people trying to make this inference between anti-zionism and antisemitism. The only people who take statements of liberation as a threat against Jews are people who are collaborating or benefiting from the oppression Israel conducts in their name.

                • poVoq@slrpnk.net
                  115·
                  8 days ago

                  Sorry, but you are misinterpreting that rule. What I said is perfectly compatible with the rule. The extension that this also applies to Jews is solely to preempt the common “equal rights and the Jews are free to leave” dogwistle.

                  And you are highly mistaken that there are no people advocating for the destruction of Israel, in fact it is quite common.

              • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
                16·
                8 days ago

                It’s so funny how you types are constantly hiding behind the law and saying, “I didn’t make the law, I don’t agree with it, but they have to do this to avoid legal liability, hands are tied” and then five seconds later you say stuff like, “criticism of Israel is a dogwhistle for antisemitism.”

                You’re a coward, refusing to admit your real positions because you know you can’t defend them.

                • poVoq@slrpnk.net
                  111·
                  8 days ago

                  Please don’t put words in my mouth. My real position is crystal clear and I am happy to stand by them.

  • Highlybaked@lemm.ee
    272·
    7 days ago

    Why does the country that gassed people think they have any moral authority to tell others right from wrong

  • GnuLinuxDude@lemmy.ml
    512·
    7 days ago

    Palestinians, remember the following: you can resist your occupation but ONLY on the occupiers terms.

    For the rest of us, remember the following: you can protest genocide, but ONLY on the genocider’s terms.

  • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
    471·
    8 days ago

    ive got temp banned from there for mentioning europe engages in colonialism.

    havent participated a lot in there since.

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      382·
      8 days ago

      Caught a perma ban there for calling german oligarchs being heavy on Nazi nepo babies

      That server has censorship that’s more clown than lemmy.world.

      German regime front on Lemmy… Lol

      People should vote with their feet.

      These clowns should not host pan EU communities, let them circle jerk Zionism in an echo chamber 🤡

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      141·
      7 days ago

      Western Germany never de-Nazified, the Nazis teamed up with the Zionists even when the Nazis were in power. They left the Nazis as they were effective anti-Communists, and the West collectively felt that was a worthwhile trade. Germany pays lip service to combatting fighting the Nazis, but keeps the underlying fascism the West in general has.

  • gobbles_turkey@lemm.ee
    445·
    8 days ago

    well, fuck feddit.org then. Any place thats too busy fellating genocide deserves to be abandoned and blocked. If they think they matter, they are wrong.

  • Grapho@lemmy.ml
    303·
    8 days ago

    Oh shit, the (White) Power Rankings heating up as feddit takes up an unexpected lead against stormfront.world

  • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
    647·
    8 days ago

    While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany… Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations.

    Lol, they’re trying to pretend that the cops will kick down their doors if someone says “free Palestine” on a server they’re mods of.

    • chobeat@lemmy.ml
      153·
      8 days ago

      I live in Germany, and it’s a totally realistic scenario, especially in Bavaria. They seize computers to intimidate digital activists all the time for way less serious topics.

      • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
        21·
        7 days ago

        Have they ever raided someone just for being the admin on a social media site?

        • chobeat@lemmy.ml
          61·
          7 days ago

          social media site specifically I don’t know, but raids for managing infrastructure for completely legal but politically inconvenient activities, yes, plenty. I remember going to a talk from a guy managing the servers of Extinction Rebellion and he got all his stuff seized, never got accused of anything, had to wait months to get his stuff back and never got back a few things.

          • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
            23·
            7 days ago

            Source?

            And that’s very different to just being an admin on a social media site that doesn’t ruthlessly enforce German law.

            • deathbird@mander.xyz
              2·
              7 days ago

              So here’s an article about a raid on an environmentalist group in Germany called Last Generation: https://earth.org/last-generation-activists/

              There’s a link to the German language statement from the police which is quite readable after translation, and of course the article itself describes the general activities that they were engaged in and accused of.

              Of the activities that they were accused of, it does seem in line with prior environmental activist groups like Extinction Rebellion, Greenpeace, and Earth First!

              As for what laws get enforced by a website, that is going to depend on jurisdiction. For example, the USA has section 230 of the DMCA, which holds that website operators are not responsible for user content with the exception of content accused of violating copyright within certain parameters. Doesn’t mean they won’t raid your servers, just means you won’t be held legally responsible if they think you were sufficiently responsive to issues when raised.

              At this time I don’t know the specifics of what Germans have to think about to avoid state interference, but it does look like it is more severe than what the US has to do with.

  • highduc@lemmy.ml
    504·
    8 days ago

    Wow, real mask off moment, though they were using the “German law” pretext for a while now.