As posted about recently in [email protected] and [email protected] it seems that @[email protected]’s stance on transphobia has not changed and his apology only seems to be that he was sorry he got caught and that someone leaked the DM. This is concerning for an admin of Lemmy.ml and the leader of the project. I don’t think this means we should stop using Lemmy, it’s open-source and even if they embed donation links, they can be stripped out in our fork. But it does make me wonder if we should consider defederating lemmy.ml on that merit. Since if they hold such views on trans issues, it’s very likely they won’t have any desire to act on that type of transphobia being expressed on their instance.
I know that Lemmy.ml has and does handle overt transphobia well, but I can’t speak to their ability to handle less overt or thinly veiled transphobia, and this incident doesn’t inspire much confidence either.
Edit: Since some people haven’t seen the original. I decided to include it here. Warning, it contains transphobia, if you don’t want to see that, don’t open the spoiler.
CW: Transphobic talking points
I’d really like to hear Feedback from Blahaj’s local community on this, I’m not as interested in outside opinions here so please try to refrain from top-level commenting if you aren’t from lemmy.blahaj.zone (I will ignore them if you comment anyway from a remote instance).
This feels like cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic. Its always this one screenshot, of a comment made in response to something else that I have never seen posted any of the times this has been brought up. A response without context is kind of sus.
Being uninformed or misinformed is not bigotry. There was a time when I probably would have said something similar, before I learned more, and knew better. I don’t think this is strong evidence of a real issue.
Until the point that he makes more questionable statements about trans or lgbtqia2s+ people, this is fine as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think what I have seen so far is actionable.
Edit: from reading Ada’s comments in this thread I endorse her stance.
From the very strict enforcement standards of this instance, the DM was enough to warrant a ban for nutomic, but not enough to warrant defederation for ml. That seems fine until or unless more information comes to light.
It’s far worse than this. Grad is a NAFO supremacist demonic sub that has nothing to do with trans rights, and their supremacist brainwashing agenda should always be resisted, for its deep nazi militarist roots, and no one who is not banned from that cesspool should ever be taken seriously.
In specific text exchange, the persecution target’s crime is their supposed responsibility to correct the pigfucking stalker with expressing trans maximalism “of course men should be able to cheat at women’s sport by wearing a dress”. Disagreeing with that statement is objectively not anti-trans, and Grad supremacist brainworm circlejerk, is simply deflecting from no incriminating content whatsoever, other than justifying circular hatred.
ummmm… what?
this discussion is about lemmy.ml, not lemmygrad.
If you have anything relevant to my previous comment please say so. What you typed is incoherent.
If you have information about the exchange post a screenshot, and stop the insults and name calling.
cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic.
I’m supporting that statement. I don’t need different screenshots from OP’s to point out that OP is showing a nothing burger.
Also, never seen lemmygrad. Just the NAFO troll site crossposted.
In that case, who or what do you mean by “grad?” And what is NAFO? I’m probably missing something.
meanwhileongrad is aNAFO militarist empire supremacist group. Unrelated shit disturbing nonsense is exemplified by this specific trolling.
It’s the first time I see the transphobic original message, and honestly I’m not surprised to see it within ML community. In general, they and the ideology is already rather cultish given their beliefs and the shunning of “wrongthink”, but there’s a smaller subsection of ML’s who genuinely believe in this kind of reactionary chauvinism that’s a complete bastardization of Marxism.
There’s probably no one on this specific community who goes “hmm maybe there’s some merit to that statement”, but in case there is:
Trans people exist, and much like proletarians, their experience is shaped by our society and material conditions. They suffer through medical gatekeeping, discrimination and state violence among other things, all of them stemming from structures of capitalist domination, and just because occasionally some bourgeoisie opportunistically exploit these issues to garner support/profit from rainbow capitalism and the like, doesn’t mean you should go full reactionary.
I keep hearing people say that beehaw is filled with reactionaries, does that hold any merit?
First time I’m hearing of that but no, it’s mostly liberal progressive types here.
Good, as I suspected world users are… Well they’re world users
Liberals, sure.
Progressives?
You can get away with all kind of reactionary nonsense as long as you’re polite about your bigotry and run around JAQing off.
Admin Ping for @[email protected] to weigh in on this issue with her thoughts and opinions on the matter.
Nutomic was banned from this instance approximately 9 months ago when I first become aware of his stance. However, it’s not something I plan on defederating over unless it becomes clear that the instance as a whole is not acting on transphobic content or unless it becomes clear that the community strongly believes that we should defederate.
Yeah that’s why I decided to make the thread sooner rather than later. I wanted to get the community’s opinions on it and see what they think. I do think there is the risk of Nutomic and others refusing to action transphobic rhetoric similar to his own if it seems “respectful” and “logical”.
If that starts happening, we will defederate. But he doesn’t seem to be standing in the way of the rest of the instance staff from dealing with it as far as I can tell.
seen a couple of TERFs get bullied off of my fedi TLs lately and it warms my heart
yea let’s defederate.
somthin somthin terf-tankie-whatevr… somthin along those lines… i dun evn kno whad those words mean
- TERF = Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (transphobia)
- Tankie = Apologists for outright oppressive, murderous regimes like Putin’s Russia and North Korea
Is this guy even real? lmao at this point he might as well admit to being a christo-facist
They’re doing what many TERFs do, trying to cover up their bigotry with politeness and trying to sound like it’s about logic or discussing the meaning of things. Trying to make their transphobia seem acceptable. Then they say trans people are unreasonable when they get called out or banned for their bigotry.
Well terfs are definitely nazis
This looks like a fight trying to be picked, not something to defederate over.
give away for free
I’m assuming this is under one of the several threads soliciting donations? Just because it doesn’t require payment to use doesn’t absolve them of any problems people might have that would keep them from handing over money in other capacities.
It’s a bad argument yet devs always seem to want to hide behind it. Free things do not allow someone or somemany to just support horrific things and everybody else has to be okay with that.
Lemmy.today maybe too
Lemmy.today has already been defederated from blahaj.zone because they had some nasty spam and transphobia problems.
I personally blocked ml a long time ago and my experience is much better for it. Their moderation and userbase leave much to be desired. As far as nutomic, I would say it seems like hes not a good person from what I know, and especially this post.
I’d really hate to lose [email protected] honestly, it’s the largest community for Linux stuff, and a big part of what I spend my time on Lemmy doing. While the stuff Nutomic has said is awful, I’d also really like to see instances of moderation on lemmy.ml that are problematic/transphobic before making the call to defederate.
They do indeed have a history of problematic moderation in general, though I’m not sure about how much they let thinly veiled transphobia slip there. There’s not much of it to begin with and can be difficult to spot at first.
I’d really hate to lose [email protected] honestly
I pointed out in the other comment two alternatives to the Linux comm. [email protected] and [email protected], both have decent activity and could be more active if more users started posting.
They both have tens of thousands of less users. As for the moderation, I know they can be bad at that, and difficult to appeal to, but I’ve yet to see anything transphobic.
They both have tens of thousands of less users.
Subscriber wise they are vastly different in size, MAUs aren’t as drastic. Which is largely what matters.
[email protected] is within striking distance of beating [email protected] in MAUs
Comm Subscriber count is misleading and can easily be full of dead accounts
That’s fair, and you’re right that it’s possible, but as well it’s possible all those accounts come online in a 3-4 month rotation.
The more important point for me though is whether or not there are transphobic moderation instances. I know they can be really abrasive, I’ve seen the PTB threads, but none of that seems to have been major instances of transphobia that I can tell. I’m all for defederation in those cases when admins refuse to moderate transphobic dogwhistles and the like, I was super supportive of the feddit.uk defed for example. But one admin on a team of many saying something transphobic that’s a personal view doesn’t quite reach that threshold for me. Especially on a larger instance where I think we have to consider the ramifications of fracturing the community a lot more in my opinion.
Nutomic is a transphobe, but the rest of the admin/mods I haven’t noticed any issue on. And if that was the only reason to consider defederation, id be right there with you. But Nutomics bigoted stance is really just one of other major issues with .ml. here’s a post I made a few days ago recaping those issues: https://lemmy.world/post/29072279
lemmy devs being bigoted it’s more likely than it think
i really wish there was a valid lemmy alternative software or wish postmill implemented atproto or ap :(
Migrate to piefed. Donate to piefed.
This shit ends when the problematic and cringe Lemmy devs lose the power of owning the platform. There are other mature activitypub projects, and literally all we need to do is support them.
The problem with moving to another server software is that there’s a much bigger developer ecosystem around Lemmy. Other projects simply can’t match that.
Like, there are multiple Lemmy clients in Google Play and F-Droid, for example. There isn’t even one for PieFed in either store.
Why is it not enough to just switch Lemmy server or block ml instances?
Cause devs have contorl over the software and can implement subtle ways to get people think ml instances are the real lemmy. EG suggesting it at the lemmy site for any newcomers, making its threads get slight priority in the feed of every and so on.
Other reasons here as well to consider defederation
Yep, bad views don’t just stop at one particular thing. Flagship instances often go this way sadly, and thus should be defederated from unless they significantly improve.
Isn’t lemmy already?
What statement about transgender people are we talking about?
Sigh, if you must know, here is the context:
CW: Transphobic talking points
I thought more people had seen this since it’s older and pinned in MeanwhileOnGrad.
This is baffling. How can you be so bad at communism that you think trans rights are something the bourgeoisie are pushing
Yeah. All transphobe considerations apart (and that’s something!), this is a terrible “marxist” take.
allowing biological men to compete
I don’t go to this school, but this line seems irredeemably constructed.
